The connection between a spiritual experience and a certain religion - Page 3

bunny · #21 06-04-2007, 04:09 AM

In case it's not clear what I meant, I am referring to beliefs like:
It's impossible to travel faster than the speed of light, there are a bunch of fundamental particles which combine in various ways to make "bigger" sub-atomic particles, natural selection accounts for the variety of species in some nebulous, half-understood way, the universe expanded from an infinitely dense point, a variety of half-remembered things from astronomy and astrophysics regarding the formation of stars, planets and black holes, etc etc

While I believe each of these things, I am very confident that we dont have them all right. I cant say which ones of course, yet I am left believing in a bunch of statements but confident that they aren't all true. It sounds peculiar, but I dont think it is an uncommon position if you think about it. My religion is the same.

godBoy · #22 06-04-2007, 04:09 AM

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Most people do it all the time. I have a bunch of beliefs regarding science for example, but given the nature of scientific theories I am pretty confident that they are not true representations of the world. I dont see this as a problem, do you?

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Yes, I do. Given the nature of scientific theories I am pretty confident that they are good representations of the world.

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With regard to christianity, of course, what I mean is that I assume that my interpretation of the bible is incorrect (after all, how could I possibly expect to get it exactly right?). That doesnt change the fact that it "seems right" to me.

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There's a difference between being 'right' and 100% correct.

bunny · #23 06-04-2007, 04:14 AM

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Most people do it all the time. I have a bunch of beliefs regarding science for example, but given the nature of scientific theories I am pretty confident that they are not true representations of the world. I dont see this as a problem, do you?

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Yes, I do. Given the nature of scientific theories I am pretty confident that they are good representations of the world.

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So why do they keep being discarded and replaced with new ones?

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With regard to christianity, of course, what I mean is that I assume that my interpretation of the bible is incorrect (after all, how could I possibly expect to get it exactly right?). That doesnt change the fact that it "seems right" to me.

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There's a difference between being 'right' and 100% correct.

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Well, perhaps you would say it differently. What I mean is that I think the bible is inspired by god and says the following things about him: blah blah blah. However, there are millions of competing religions (many of them christian) which disagree with me. I doubt very much that I've got it spot on. In other words, I believe in a religion which I expect to be wrong. This seems obviously right to me - but perhaps it is just a semantic distinction we are tripping over. I certainly disnt mean to say that I have some single statement which I "believe" while being confident it is false.

godBoy · #24 06-04-2007, 04:16 AM

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I don't see why you keep saying it's intellectually dishonest. Would you mind expanding on that? To me it's seems the most intellectually honest. If none of the religions make sense to you as a whole, why is it wrong to choose to follow the tenets that you agree with? You wouldn't be able to claim that you follow a particular religion, but I don't see how it's dishonest.

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I think it's dishonest to construct a religion that has any truth value by taking the parts from different religions that you would like to be true. All you would be making is a likeable religion and not an honest one.

Taraz · #25 06-04-2007, 04:26 AM

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I don't see why you keep saying it's intellectually dishonest. Would you mind expanding on that? To me it's seems the most intellectually honest. If none of the religions make sense to you as a whole, why is it wrong to choose to follow the tenets that you agree with? You wouldn't be able to claim that you follow a particular religion, but I don't see how it's dishonest.

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I think it's dishonest to construct a religion that has any truth value by taking the parts from different religions that you would like to be true. All you would be making is a likeable religion and not an honest one.

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Dishonest to who? If you don't believe any of the religions to be the absolute truth, then why does it matter whether you learn something from some of them and choose to apply what you've learned to your life? If you think all religions are "wrong" to some extent, then where does the dishonesty lie? However, I understand your wishful thinking claim.

In a related but separate point, I think people do this with religion anyway. If you aren't born into your religion, you likely shopped around and chose the one which jives best with whatever you already believe.

godBoy · #26 06-04-2007, 04:33 AM

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Dishonest to who? If you don't believe any of the religions to be the absolute truth, then why does it matter whether you learn something from some of them and choose to apply what you've learned to your life? If you think all religions are "wrong" to some extent, then where does the dishonesty lie?

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Your being dishonest to yourself if you actually believe the religion that you have willingly crafted yourself.
But, it is dishonest just the same if you 'follow' something that you just can't 'believe' in.

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In a related but separate point, I think people do this with religion anyway. If you aren't born into your religion, you likely shopped around and chose the one which jives best with whatever you already believe.

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Not all do this. In fact many people wrestle with the Christian God, he's not.. politically correct on a few matters.

Where some may simply throw out these things - That is the point where they are being dishonest.

godBoy · #27 06-04-2007, 04:39 AM

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So why do they keep being discarded and replaced with new ones?

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Come on bunny.. mostly scientific findings are very consistent throughout time(and it's getting better as time goes on), some are re-shaped, and very few are completely discarded.

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I believe in a religion which I expect to be wrong

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This isn't justs semantic differences - this sentence means something distinctive, that you are a confused person [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

When in fact you mean to say that you believe in a religion, but you don't expect it to be 100% right.
99.999% correct is hardly 'wrong'

Taraz · #28 06-04-2007, 04:47 AM

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Dishonest to who? If you don't believe any of the religions to be the absolute truth, then why does it matter whether you learn something from some of them and choose to apply what you've learned to your life? If you think all religions are "wrong" to some extent, then where does the dishonesty lie?

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Your being dishonest to yourself if you actually believe the religion that you have willingly crafted yourself.
But, it is dishonest just the same if you 'follow' something that you just can't 'believe' in.

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I agree with your second sentence, and that's why I don't understand where the dishonesty comes in. If you believe that you've somehow "got it right", I guess that would be dishonest because you're admitting you don't know by picking and choosing in the first place. But if you're just searching like everyone else, that seems pretty honest to me. I mean, aren't you supposed to be looking for what makes sense and resonates with you personally? Again who are you dishonest to? You're obviously not lying to yourself if you plead ignorance, right?

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In a related but separate point, I think people do this with religion anyway. If you aren't born into your religion, you likely shopped around and chose the one which jives best with whatever you already believe.

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Not all do this. In fact many people wrestle with the Christian God, he's not.. politically correct on a few matters.

Where some may simply throw out these things - That is the point where they are being dishonest.

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I never claimed all did this, just that many do.

I'm still missing the dishonest. You've never disagreed with authority? Are you "dishonest" if you do? Disobedient maybe, but not dishonest. I just don't understand your use of that word.

godBoy · #29 06-04-2007, 04:54 AM

Your being dishonest to yourself if you actually believe the religion that you have willingly crafted yourself, because in 'crafting it' you know that it's made up.

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You're obviously not lying to yourself if you plead ignorance, right?

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Right.

Taraz · #30 06-04-2007, 04:57 AM

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Your being dishonest to yourself if you actually believe the religion that you have willingly crafted yourself, because in 'crafting it' you know that it's made up.

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You're obviously not lying to yourself if you plead ignorance, right?

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Right.

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Well you can believe it and not be sure it's correct. I think that's what bunny was getting at.

I don't think anyone believes that their cherry-picked version of religion is the absolute truth though.