I 4bet with A8s - Page 3

Speedlimits · #21 11-15-2007, 04:13 PM

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I like 4-betting with Ax hands (instead of calling) for another reason. The combinatorics make it slightly less likely that he has AA/AK/AQ and is just going to shove right back over you. Another benefit is that people almost never just call 4-bets with AK/AQ so you know if an ace flops there's a good chance you're good against QQ or whatever.

As played, I'd just check it back and evaluate on the turn.

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Do you 4bet with your small pckts too?

Dire · #22 11-15-2007, 04:17 PM

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I like 4-betting with Ax hands (instead of calling) for another reason. The combinatorics make it slightly less likely that he has AA/AK/AQ and is just going to shove right back over you. Another benefit is that people almost never just call 4-bets with AK/AQ so you know if an ace flops there's a good chance you're good against QQ or whatever.

As played, I'd just check it back and evaluate on the turn.

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Do you 4bet with your small pckts too?

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I don't have a set 4-betting range since it's all so game/opponent specific. If there's a good situation to do it, there's no specific reason I wouldn't 4bet a small pocket. I simply have a slight preference for the Ax hands for the reasons mentioned.

billybeartku · #23 11-15-2007, 04:19 PM

don't like the 4bet w/ A8s, tho you're IP but it's a dominated hand, if you spike an Ace...I see you go broke with kicker problem. As played, i'd check down and hopefully Ace high is good there (which i doubt), or you can shove on the turn if turns a heart or an 8.

Speedlimits · #24 11-15-2007, 04:29 PM

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I like 4-betting with Ax hands (instead of calling) for another reason. The combinatorics make it slightly less likely that he has AA/AK/AQ and is just going to shove right back over you. Another benefit is that people almost never just call 4-bets with AK/AQ so you know if an ace flops there's a good chance you're good against QQ or whatever.

As played, I'd just check it back and evaluate on the turn.

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Do you 4bet with your small pckts too?

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I don't have a set 4-betting range since it's all so game/opponent specific. If there's a good situation to do it, there's no specific reason I wouldn't 4bet a small pocket. I simply have a slight preference for the Ax hands for the reasons mentioned.

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You shouldn't though because smaller pocket pairs have more equity than Ax hands. This was all discussed in the "what hands should I 4bet with" post i made a few months back

Dire · #25 11-15-2007, 04:42 PM

Going exclusively based on equity is incorrect imo.

The VAST majority of a light 4-bet equity comes from FE. Ax increases FE as it slightly increases the probability that his 3-bet is being made lightly. The secondary value from your hand comes in postflop playability - inducing mistakes versus making them yourself. Actual raw hand value at showdown is a somewhat distant third. I mean if I'm 4-betting somebody light and the hand goes to showdown, something's generally gone wrong.

Noam Chomsky · #26 11-15-2007, 04:43 PM

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its not only that we are dominated, its that by calling with this hand we will be extremly difficult position once we see the flop and will put us in a situation where its very hard to play properly

and I do not think a8 plays good vs his range at all

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You never call people light in 3bet pots IP? By not calling this pf you are extremely exploitable. 4betting isn't bad but this hand has value and now it doesn't.

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This is ridiculous. Not calling three bets with A8s makes you 'extremely exploitable'? How exactly?

Dire · #27 11-15-2007, 04:50 PM

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Going exclusively based on equity is incorrect imo.

The VAST majority of a light 4-bet equity comes from FE. Ax increases FE as it slightly increase the probability that his 3-bet is being made lightly. The secondary value from your hand comes in postflop playability - inducing mistakes versus making them yourself. Actual raw hand value at showdown is a somewhat distant third.

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And something I didn't even mention is that having more equity can actually put you in some pretty [censored] spots. I mean if you have 4-bet with 22 and your opponent shoves with a range of QQ-AA,AK,AQ then you're obligated to call. It's going to be marginally profitable and seriously send your variance through the roof. Whereas A8 has significantly less equity and is easy to get away from in the same spot.

Speedlimits · #28 11-15-2007, 04:54 PM

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its not only that we are dominated, its that by calling with this hand we will be extremly difficult position once we see the flop and will put us in a situation where its very hard to play properly

and I do not think a8 plays good vs his range at all

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You never call people light in 3bet pots IP? By not calling this pf you are extremely exploitable. 4betting isn't bad but this hand has value and now it doesn't.

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This is ridiculous. Not calling three bets with A8s makes you 'extremely exploitable'? How exactly?

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Not calling 3bets with less than premium hands makes you exploitable. Especially if we are in position.

Speedlimits · #29 11-15-2007, 04:58 PM

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Going exclusively based on equity is incorrect imo.

The VAST majority of a light 4-bet equity comes from FE. Ax increases FE as it slightly increase the probability that his 3-bet is being made lightly. The secondary value from your hand comes in postflop playability - inducing mistakes versus making them yourself. Actual raw hand value at showdown is a somewhat distant third.

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And something I didn't even mention is that having more equity can actually put you in some pretty [censored] spots. I mean if you have 4-bet with 22 and your opponent shoves with a range of QQ-AA,AK,AQ then you're obligated to call. It's going to be marginally profitable and seriously send your variance through the roof. Whereas A8 has significantly less equity and is easy to get away from in the same spot.

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Wait if you're 4betting with Ax hands it should be with the intention of calling a shove, not folding.

Also go pokerstove small pocket pairs against villains pushing range and you will they have more equity than Ax hands.

Dire · #30 11-15-2007, 05:07 PM

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Going exclusively based on equity is incorrect imo.

The VAST majority of a light 4-bet equity comes from FE. Ax increases FE as it slightly increase the probability that his 3-bet is being made lightly. The secondary value from your hand comes in postflop playability - inducing mistakes versus making them yourself. Actual raw hand value at showdown is a somewhat distant third.

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And something I didn't even mention is that having more equity can actually put you in some pretty [censored] spots. I mean if you have 4-bet with 22 and your opponent shoves with a range of QQ-AA,AK,AQ then you're obligated to call. It's going to be marginally profitable and seriously send your variance through the roof. Whereas A8 has significantly less equity and is easy to get away from in the same spot.

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Wait if you're 4betting with Ax hands it should be with the intention of calling a shove, not folding.

Also go pokerstove small pocket pairs against villains pushing range and you will they have more equity than Ax hands.

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Did you read/understand what I wrote? I know small pairs have more equity than Ax. It was the basis of everything I said.

And you are also being very dogmatic in your thinking, which is wrong. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] 4-bet calling is not a rule, nor necessary for metagame nor equity. Nor is 4-bet folding. It heavily depends on your overall game, your opponent, situation, etc..