Huge odds V.S. reverse domination

[Befolder]

I respectfully disagree. I still raise this a lot of the time, but I consider just calling more during a live game that plays the way a typical live game does.

[Grease]

Ok, I've found some sexy things to do with PokerStove. I put in AQo against 5 opponents with any broadway, any suited, and any pair. AQo only has a 1.5% edge in such a simulation.

AQs has a 7% edge. Wow.

On a QT3 board AQo has 34.7% to the other hands have 13% while AQs has 37.5% to 12.5% for the other hands.

AQs has a much bigger edge PF, while AQo has one relatively close to no edge. This is very interesting and I would like to hear what others have to say on this. I'll run it against random hands as well, and post that in a second, I have work to be done in lab ATM.

[JJH3984]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I've found some sexy things to do with PokerStove. I put in AQo against 5 opponents with any broadway, any suited, and any pair. AQo only has a 1.5% edge in such a simulation.

AQs has a 7% edge. Wow.

On a QT3 board AQo has 34.7% to the other hands have 13% while AQs has 37.5% to 12.5% for the other hands.

AQs has a much bigger edge PF, while AQo has one relatively close to no edge. This is very interesting and I would like to hear what others have to say on this. I'll run it against random hands as well, and post that in a second, I have work to be done in lab ATM.

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IF this is the range that the limpers have, limping along with AQo is correct, but normal live players have a signifigantly higher range. Also we have to discount premium hands from the limpers.

[Grease]

Good point, I'll do that first.

I'll post in a few minutes with that data.

I'll discount AKs, AKo, AA-JJ, since they're LP and would prolly limp TT and AQs.

[Befolder]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I've found some sexy things to do with PokerStove. I put in AQo against 5 opponents with any broadway, any suited, and any pair. AQo only has a 1.5% edge in such a simulation.

AQs has a 7% edge. Wow.

On a QT3 board AQo has 34.7% to the other hands have 13% while AQs has 37.5% to 12.5% for the other hands.

AQs has a much bigger edge PF, while AQo has one relatively close to no edge. This is very interesting and I would like to hear what others have to say on this. I'll run it against random hands as well, and post that in a second, I have work to be done in lab ATM.

[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks for doing the leg work on that Grease. That's the point I was trying to make. Our equity increases largely if we hit on the flop and we can exploit a much much larger edge than pf.

FWIW JHH, I used to argue the same side as you, but after playing live and experimenting on both sides and then posting in a similar thread here, I tried to at least be open to the idea that maybe raising just because we are probably best w/ AQ isn't always right. Just a note.

[Xhad]

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Put in a flop of QT3 and then see how big your edge is. It should be much larger. My version is somehow expired so I can't do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

You could do the same thing with AKo and that's not a good limp either.

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Sometimes it's better to pass up on a small +EV opportunity if you can take advantage of a larger one in the near future. If you've read SSHE or HPFAP, that should be recognizable.

[/ QUOTE ]

HEFAP also says that limping with AQo is something you do if your opponents are decent but play too loose, but you should still raise it if they suck and limp all kinds of crap.

It's still kinda close IMO; I consider AJo/KQo to be standard limps in this situation.

[Grease]

Ok, the hands I gave everyone are TT-22,AQs-A2s,K2s+,Q2s+,J2s+,T2s+,92s+,82s+,72s+,62s+,52s+,4 2s+,32s,AQo-A2o,K2o+,Q2o+,J2o+,T8o+,98o. I may have given too many little broadways, but I can easily fix that.

PF:AQo 23% to 15.5% for everyone else
AQs 27% to 14.5%

On a QT3r flop

AQo:46.1% to 10.7%
AQs:48.1% to 10.35%

With the limping hands that I specified, the edge for AQo is quite large, but I'll refine further by dumping some offsuit Jx and Qx and examine these as well.

[Befolder]

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It's still kinda close IMO; I consider AJo/KQo to be standard limps in this situation.

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The point that you've made is as marginal as the different between AQo and AJo. They're both negligiable.
[img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[Gap23Razor]

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Cap preflop for value.

Easy flop call.

I'd value the hand at about 3 outs.

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i 2nd the thought...as a rule of thumb i give 1.5 out to an overcard, so with 2 overcards, 3 outs...

[Xhad]

[ QUOTE ]
The point that you've made is as marginal as the different between AQo and AJo. They're both negligiable.
[img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

The difference between AQo and AJo is frequently enough to justify a 3bet vs. a fold.