San Fransisco bans Plastic bags from Grocery stores

[ALawPoker]

Fair enough, I wasn't trying to "pigeon hole" you into anything, heh. Labels sort of suck; I am with you on that. I was just trying to be clear of what exactly your thinking was.

In principle, I certainly don't agree with the SF paper bag thing, and I despise the fact that the mentality that when you want something you're not willing to pay for you just ask for it in the voting booth is so accepted. But I agree with you that it of course isn't that big of a deal at a very decentralized level. I just don't see how the principle in any way changes (and based on your response it seems you agree).

[Kaj]

Where do all the plastic bags used in SF go (those not recycled)?

They go buried somewhere in SF. Where they stay for hundreds even thousands of years. Thus the true cost of plastic bags is borne out by future generations and the rest of society -- in other words, your cost analysis completely externalized the true cost of plastic bags.

Thus if SF'ans want to protect their citizens and future citizens from dealing with such external costs, there can be a legitimate case. There are thousands of cities to choose from if you disagree. And if you want to stay and persuade others to change the law, it is much easier at the local level. The knee-jerk reactions against the decisions of local govt fly in the face of real democracy. Now you may not like local-level democracy, but no better alternative currently exists. And when an anarchist alternative does emerge, I wouldn't be shocked to see local communities develop and enforce their local values. In actuality, it would be inevitable, and that is okay.

[tomdemaine]

The loss of small liberties that you don't care about is how you get the loss of big liberties that you do care about. It's only XYZ who cares? Well someone does and if you don't have empathy for them how can you possibly expect anyone to give a [censored] when you talk about how oppressive the state is?

[AlexM]

[ QUOTE ]
The loss of small liberties that you don't care about is how you get the loss of big liberties that you do care about. It's only XYZ who cares? Well someone does and if you don't have empathy for them how can you possibly expect anyone to give a [censored] when you talk about how oppressive the state is?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, but I'm not losing liberties over what people in San Francisco do anymore than I am over what people in Iran do. If it were my government that was doing this, I'd be righteously pissed off, but it isn't, so it's really not my business.

[tomdemaine]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The loss of small liberties that you don't care about is how you get the loss of big liberties that you do care about. It's only XYZ who cares? Well someone does and if you don't have empathy for them how can you possibly expect anyone to give a [censored] when you talk about how oppressive the state is?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, but I'm not losing liberties over what people in San Francisco do anymore than I am over what people in Iran do. If it were my government that was doing this, I'd be righteously pissed off, but it isn't, so it's really not my business.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why should anyone care about the war on drugs? It doesn't affect them, they don't like drugs and it's getting some "unsavoury" people off the street it's really not their business.

[AlexM]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The loss of small liberties that you don't care about is how you get the loss of big liberties that you do care about. It's only XYZ who cares? Well someone does and if you don't have empathy for them how can you possibly expect anyone to give a [censored] when you talk about how oppressive the state is?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, but I'm not losing liberties over what people in San Francisco do anymore than I am over what people in Iran do. If it were my government that was doing this, I'd be righteously pissed off, but it isn't, so it's really not my business.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why should anyone care about the war on drugs? It doesn't affect them, they don't like drugs and it's getting some "unsavoury" people off the street it's really not their business.

[/ QUOTE ]

The War on Drugs is something that my government is doing. I don't live in San Francisco. Perhaps you support invading countries to libertate them and bring them democracy as well?

[Taso]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The loss of small liberties that you don't care about is how you get the loss of big liberties that you do care about. It's only XYZ who cares? Well someone does and if you don't have empathy for them how can you possibly expect anyone to give a [censored] when you talk about how oppressive the state is?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, but I'm not losing liberties over what people in San Francisco do anymore than I am over what people in Iran do. If it were my government that was doing this, I'd be righteously pissed off, but it isn't, so it's really not my business.

[/ QUOTE ]

That doesn't mean people outside of San Fransisco can't have a discussion about what is done in San Fransisco, as what is done in San Fransisco might be something that is taken up in your local government. It's sort of that classic "first they came for the ____" poem. I'm pissed off that SF's government is setting this precedent.

[Metric]

Liberals simply like to micro-manage other peoples' lives -- no surprise... Government says to use "brand X" bag, you use "brand X." Maybe it's easier for some people to live that way -- I don't know.

[Barcalounger]

[ QUOTE ]
Conservatives simply like to micro-manage other peoples' lives -- no surprise... Government says to use "religion X" morals, you use "religion X." Maybe it's easier for some people to live that way -- I don't know.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hippies don't have a monopoly on dumb legislation micro-managing your life. Does it get any more stupid than conservatives outlawing certain kinds of sex between consensual adults?

I'm glad to see a couple AC'ists break from the fundamentalist ranks and admit that in the real world this is pretty much a non-issue if you don't live in SF.

[Taso]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Conservatives simply like to micro-manage other peoples' lives -- no surprise... Government says to use "religion X" morals, you use "religion X." Maybe it's easier for some people to live that way -- I don't know.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hippies don't have a monopoly on dumb legislation micro-managing your life. Does it get any more stupid than conservatives outlawing certain kinds of sex between consensual adults?

I'm glad to see a couple AC'ists break from the fundamentalist ranks and admit that in the real world this is pretty much a non-issue if you don't live in SF.

[/ QUOTE ]

For the record, I'm not an ACist. I'm just a crazy person that doesn't think the city should be able to [censored] with private business.