Donkey Test

[metsandfinsfan]

i voted raise all-in. It is probably wrong but it is what i would really do. problem is you are probably only getting called by aa so i know it is probably wrong

[Fiepoto]

So here is my take on #38. This seems to be asking if we are capable of laying down a big hand pre-flop.

We are told that a very tight and very aggressive player has just 3bet another tight player who 4bet the the BB from UTG.

This has got to be AA.

We have nothing (edit: ok, $10) in the pot, and it is 1/8th our stack to call. This is a fold. A hard fold, but if there were ever reason to fold KK preflop, this would be it.

Fold.

[thoman8r]

[ QUOTE ]
So here is my take on #38. This seems to be asking if we are capable of laying down a big hand pre-flop.

We are told that a very tight and very aggressive player has just 3bet another tight player who 4bet the the BB from UTG.

This has got to be AA.

We have nothing (edit: ok, $10) in the pot, and it is 1/8th our stack to call. This is a fold. A hard fold, but if there were ever reason to fold KK preflop, this would be it.

Fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you've misread the question. MP is 3-betting, not 4-betting, and his 3-bet range even if he's very tight has to be wider than just AA. There is no way you can fold in this spot - no way. I have to admit though, I am not sure what the best line is. If we raise and one of the villains shoves, then that is almost certainly AA. However if we just call we are allowing UTG to stay in the hand and we are wildly OOP against 2 PFR. I did pick raise but perhaps small-raise is a better option as it both makes it more difficult for UTG to call and allows us to find out if one of the villains has AA relatively cheaply?

[Davdob]

I originally tried to make a case for raising here, but the truth is, it would require putting in half your stack without being committed. The only thing that would fully commit me to going all in with this hand at this point would be another king.

Since, Im not committed, I fold.

[KipBond]

[ QUOTE ]
I did pick raise but perhaps small-raise is a better option as it both makes it more difficult for UTG to call and allows us to find out if one of the villains has AA relatively cheaply?

[/ QUOTE ]

I picked small raise. Though a standard raise isn't bad, either. I'd raise to about $500. It's 1/4 of my stack, and I can get away from it if someone pushes. But, a standard raise to $800 might be OK too, as long as you are willing to fold if they push.

[Davdob]

A small raise or a full pot raise leaves you awfully vulnerable to being bluffed off the best hand (to make matters worse we are out of position to one or two potential callers).

Say you get a caller with QQ, an A comes on the flop. If you are going to bet at it, you should have pushed anyway. If you check he is going to put you to the test, and you almost certainly are going to fold. You just threw in 1/4 to 1/2 of your stack and followed up by mistakenly folding.

If I were one of the original two raisers, I would call a mini raise or a regular raise with a broader range just for this reason.

p.s. I really really in my gut want to bet at this. So somebody please explain why this thought process is nitty and weak!

[thoman8r]

[ QUOTE ]
A small raise or a full pot raise leaves you awfully vulnerable to being bluffed off the best hand (to make matters worse we are out of position to one or two potential callers).

Say you get a caller with QQ, an A comes on the flop. If you are going to bet at it, you should have pushed anyway. If you check he is going to put you to the test, and you almost certainly are going to fold. You just threw in 1/4 to 1/2 of your stack and followed up by mistakenly folding.

If I were one of the original two raisers, I would call a mini raise or a regular raise with a broader range just for this reason.

[/ QUOTE ]

But you're not. The 3-better is described as "very tight". I think there's a more than decent chance he folds QQ to a 4-bet, and he certainly doesn't go broke with it if an Ace peels off and we check to him (remember, we might also play AA in much the same manner).

[Fiepoto]

[ QUOTE ]

I think you've misread the question. MP is 3-betting, not 4-betting, and his 3-bet range even if he's very tight has to be wider than just AA. There is no way you can fold in this spot - no way. I have to admit though, I am not sure what the best line is. If we raise and one of the villains shoves, then that is almost certainly AA. However if we just call we are allowing UTG to stay in the hand and we are wildly OOP against 2 PFR. I did pick raise but perhaps small-raise is a better option as it both makes it more difficult for UTG to call and allows us to find out if one of the villains has AA relatively cheaply?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right, 3 bet not 4 bet. But you also bring up another good point, that we are out of position against two pre-flop raisers, which strongly suggests fold to me.

While AA against KK is rare, it does happen.

[Fiepoto]

5/10 NL Cash game. 8 Handed. You have $1,800.

You are in late position with:
7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

You make a standard raise to $40 and the solid tight aggressive player in the big blind ($1,700) re-raises to $120. You call.

Flop:
K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

BB bets $160, you call.

Turn:
J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

BB bets $400, you call.

River:
10[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

BB pushes all-in for about $1,000.

[Foolgizaki]

I would have played this hand differently from the start. Re-raising the flop would be the best play in my opinion. In not there, definitely the turn. But the river brings 4 card to a straight and you have to put in almost all your ramaining chips ($1100) for a pot that is $1400. Not the best odds when an ace gives him the nuts. Expecially from a tight aggressive player, very easily could be holding AK or AQ. I vote fold.