The Official "Tom Brady re-writes the record books in 2007" Thread

[lastchance]

Assani's right, except Brady didn't show "elite QB ability" in his first 3 seasons (2001-2003).

Of course, RIIINGGS, but just saying. I think we definitely undersold Brady, and I don't think he's gotten much better over the past year (though this could be the case), more likely how good his receiving corps is right now.

[Assani Fisher]

[ QUOTE ]
Assani is 15 games a chop or a loss for me?
Is playing defined as being under center for at least one play?

[/ QUOTE ]

How about this:

Brady has to take at least 50% of snaps for it to count as a game.

If Brady breaks or ties the record then I win(no matter how many games he played). If Brady does not then you win if Brady played in 16 games.

If he plays in less, then I'd be willing to either have it be an automatic tie or go by TDs per game- your choice, but call it now before we bet.

[lastchance]

You're forgetting how good Watson is. I really think the Patriots offense right now is as talented as the Colts were in 2004. I mean, obviously Harrison/Wayne/Stokely/Edge is a great combination, but I mean, the Colts O-Line is made entirely of 2nd day draft picks, and Sammy Morris + Maroney is a lot more effective than Edge + Rhodes. Plus, you've got the extra weapon in Watson at TE, and it's not like Stokley >>>> Welker.

Point is this, Manning's supporting cast in 2004 ~ Brady's supporting cast now.

[Eagles]

Assani,
A few points
1. Isolating pass defense is sort of silly. Run D and Pass D are highly correlated and if a team has a bad Run D than the other team runs a lot so they need to counter it by putting in more run defenders which opens up the passing game.


2. The Patriots have played 5 pretty bad teams. You keep cherry picking statistics that make it look like there strength of schedule isn't too bad but come on they played the Dolphins(0 wins), Jets (1 Win, against Miami), Bills (2 wins, one against the Jets), Bengals (2 wins, one against the Jets, and the Browns (3 Wins, one was against Miami).
These 5 teams could not have any less than 4 wins between them and they have 8. That means in games where they didn't play each other or the Pats they are a combined 4-18. If you don't include the Browns they are 2-16. They're schedule thus far has been very easy.
[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Brady has been the Best player in the NFL since 2001
2001 He did not rank in the top 10 in Passing Yards or Passing TDs
2002 6th in Yards 1st in TDs
2003 6th in Yards 10th in TDs
2004 10th in Yards 6th in TDs
2005 1st in Yards 3rd in TDs
2006 7th in Yards 4th in TDs
In which one of these years was he the best player in the NFL?
Peyton Manning
1999 3rd in yards 3rd in TDs
2000 1st in yards 1st in TDs
2001 2nd in yards 5th in Tds
2002 2nd in Yards 3rd in Tds
2003 1st in Yards 2nd in Tds
2004 3rd in Yards 1st in Tds
2005 7th in Yards 2nd in Tds
2006 2nd in Yards 1st in Tds

There's a huge difference here. BTW Manning's five MVP seasons 2000, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006.
Link
In 4 of theses five years his DPAR is well ahead of second place.


[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What categories
Okay I'll try and start here
Passing Y/A
Brady 7.1
Manning 7.8
Passing TD P/A
Brady 1 TD per 19.5 throws
Manning 1 TD per 17.7 Throws
Interceptions per P/A
Brady I INT per 41 Throws
Manning 1 INT per 36 throws
Completion Percentage
Brady 62.5%
Manning 64.2%
Yards per game
Brady 229 Yards per Game
Manning 261 Yards per Game

DPAR
Manning 120.6/per season
Brady 69.5/ per season

[/ QUOTE ]
I specifically asked you to ignore stats that were hugely influenced by a team's surrounding talent.


[/ QUOTE ]
I know you said no personal insults, and this is not meant to be one. But when I use stats such as passing yardage, interception rate, passing touchdowns and you write them off as stats that are irrelevant how can I take you seriously?

How do you measure a quarterback? By Assani Fisher's expert arbitrary QB ranking system.
It probably looks something like this
1. Tom Brady
2. T. Brady
3. Tom B.
4. Vince Young
5. The New England Patriots QB
6. Michael Vick
7. The quarterback for Michigan about 7 years ago etc.

I'd imagine you figured this out using all your special stats that don't influence teammates.

You use a few examples of QBs who drastically declined without their recievers but it goes both ways.
Why didn't Andrew Walters and Aaron Brooks improve in Oakland with Moss? etc...

cliff notes: I basically prove that thus far Peyton Manning's career his far more impressive than Tom Brady's. Assani says it doesn't count because I said so.

[Assani Fisher]

[ QUOTE ]
You're forgetting how good Watson is. I really think the Patriots offense right now is as talented as the Colts were in 2004. I mean, obviously Harrison/Wayne/Stokely/Edge is a great combination, but I mean, the Colts O-Line is made entirely of 2nd day draft picks, and Sammy Morris + Maroney is a lot more effective than Edge + Rhodes. Plus, you've got the extra weapon in Watson at TE, and it's not like Stokley >>>> Welker.

Point is this, Manning's supporting cast in 2004 ~ Brady's supporting cast now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah its close. Rating the Colts o-line is always tough for me(and being a 2nd day pick doens't automatically make you bad). They put up great "stats" but how much of that is Manning's great ability to read defenses and avoid the rush and Edge/Addai's rushing ability?

Its tough to say if they're a good unit or not imo.

Agreed on Watson somehwat...hes a top 10 TE I think.

[Pudge714]

Assani,
I would rather take the best for Daryn and I imagine he would be willing to bet up to 1k.
The 2002 Pats missing the playoffs is pretty good evidence they were lucky in 2001. By 2003 you had a much improved team.
Let's put it this way I build a time machine
2001 Pats play 2001 Raiders/Steelers/Rams on a neutral field. What are the odds of them winning each game?

[Assani Fisher]

[ QUOTE ]
Assani,
I would rather take the best for Daryn and I imagine he would be willing to bet up to 1k.
The 2002 Pats missing the playoffs is pretty good evidence they were lucky in 2001. By 2003 you had a much improved team.
Let's put it this way I build a time machine
2001 Pats play 2001 Raiders/Steelers/Rams on a neutral field. What are the odds of them winning each game?

[/ QUOTE ]
2002 Pats barely missed playoffs.....do you think that all of the recent SB losers that missed the playoffs the next year were also overrated? The NFL has so much parity that a tougher schedule alone can cause a SB team to drop to 8 wins. That and simple luck and variance. That is what happened to the 02 Pats imo.

So no bet??

[vixticator]

Random observation that in no way relates to the debate per se: Brady throws a lot from 5-wide, or 4+TE, from shotgun and the Pats offense in general uses more formations. Colts basically line up the same way, almost every down and have for years. No moving the recievers around or putting people in motion. You know where the players will be presnap. Manning then stands around and does... some stuff, lol... snaps ball and basically owns you.

This doesn't really have anything to do with the 'debate'. I think it's interesting how different the offenses are, both prob tailored exactly to their strengths. It's kind of weird how vanilla the Colts offense has always been, they just seem to line up and outplay people because there's no way to stop it anyways.

[Jbrochu]

I'm not sure what it has to do with who's a better QB, but the 2001 Pats clearly had terrific luck in their SB run that year.

They also got helped out by a couple of dumb coaches on the opposing sidelines.

IMO Brady and Manning are the 2 greatest QB's of my lifetime. Better than Montana, Marino, Fouts, Bradshaw, Staubach, Elway, Young, et al.

[Assani Fisher]

[ QUOTE ]
Assani,
A few points
1. Isolating pass defense is sort of silly. Run D and Pass D are highly correlated and if a team has a bad Run D than the other team runs a lot so they need to counter it by putting in more run defenders which opens up the passing game.


2. The Patriots have played 5 pretty bad teams. You keep cherry picking statistics that make it look like there strength of schedule isn't too bad but come on they played the Dolphins(0 wins), Jets (1 Win, against Miami), Bills (2 wins, one against the Jets), Bengals (2 wins, one against the Jets, and the Browns (3 Wins, one was against Miami).
These 5 teams could not have any less than 4 wins between them and they have 8. That means in games where they didn't play each other or the Pats they are a combined 4-18. If you don't include the Browns they are 2-16. They're schedule thus far has been very easy.
[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Brady has been the Best player in the NFL since 2001
2001 He did not rank in the top 10 in Passing Yards or Passing TDs
2002 6th in Yards 1st in TDs
2003 6th in Yards 10th in TDs
2004 10th in Yards 6th in TDs
2005 1st in Yards 3rd in TDs
2006 7th in Yards 4th in TDs
In which one of these years was he the best player in the NFL?
Peyton Manning
1999 3rd in yards 3rd in TDs
2000 1st in yards 1st in TDs
2001 2nd in yards 5th in Tds
2002 2nd in Yards 3rd in Tds
2003 1st in Yards 2nd in Tds
2004 3rd in Yards 1st in Tds
2005 7th in Yards 2nd in Tds
2006 2nd in Yards 1st in Tds

There's a huge difference here. BTW Manning's five MVP seasons 2000, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006.
Link
In 4 of theses five years his DPAR is well ahead of second place.


[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What categories
Okay I'll try and start here
Passing Y/A
Brady 7.1
Manning 7.8
Passing TD P/A
Brady 1 TD per 19.5 throws
Manning 1 TD per 17.7 Throws
Interceptions per P/A
Brady I INT per 41 Throws
Manning 1 INT per 36 throws
Completion Percentage
Brady 62.5%
Manning 64.2%
Yards per game
Brady 229 Yards per Game
Manning 261 Yards per Game

DPAR
Manning 120.6/per season
Brady 69.5/ per season

[/ QUOTE ]
I specifically asked you to ignore stats that were hugely influenced by a team's surrounding talent.


[/ QUOTE ]
I know you said no personal insults, and this is not meant to be one. But when I use stats such as passing yardage, interception rate, passing touchdowns and you write them off as stats that are irrelevant how can I take you seriously?

How do you measure a quarterback? By Assani Fisher's expert arbitrary QB ranking system.
It probably looks something like this
1. Tom Brady
2. T. Brady
3. Tom B.
4. Vince Young
5. The New England Patriots QB
6. Michael Vick
7. The quarterback for Michigan about 7 years ago etc.

I'd imagine you figured this out using all your special stats that don't influence teammates.

You use a few examples of QBs who drastically declined without their recievers but it goes both ways.
Why didn't Andrew Walters and Aaron Brooks improve in Oakland with Moss? etc...

cliff notes: I basically prove that thus far Peyton Manning's career his far more impressive than Tom Brady's. Assani says it doesn't count because I said so.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stats are not irrelevant. But I think that a good football mind watching each game will be able to evaluate players much better than just going by stats.

Tom Brady's stats wouldn't even put him ahead of QBs like Carson Palmer or Tony Romo career wise. Do you really think they are better than him?

Watching the games, to me it looks as if Tom Brady is the best player I've ever seen. You choose to rely upon stats instead. Thats fine. But this year, Tom Brady appears to be proving you wrong, as he finally has WRs and is putting up huge stats just as I've always said he would.


My contention is that as long as Brady has good weapons, plays in an open offense, and it isn't horrible weather he'll put up dominant stats. Do you disagree with that?


And I have Manning as my #2 QB so stop making silly sarcastic jokes that are taking away from the quality of your argument.