What would you do about Virginia Tech?

[John Kilduff]

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Hi Politics Forum,

The problem with the way the gun debate is conducted is that everyone seems to assume that there's a system that is best for every society. Switzerland is awash with guns and has a relatively low rate of crimes involving firearms. My country, Australia, has a total ban on semi-automatic rifles (and anything more powerful) and has a low ownership rate of firearms. I have never, in real life, seen a gun that was not attached to a police officer's belt. Australia has an extremely low rate of crimes involving firearms. So it should be obvious that there is more than one solution to the problem of gun crime.

Gun control works just great here, but I don't think it would work in the US. The genie is out of the bottle. What needs addressing in the US are social problems which lead to the high incidence of gun crime. Legalising abortion and decriminalising drugs would in my opinion both be more positive steps to reducing gun crime than anything that could be done with gun laws.

It's also important to realise that preventing events such as the Virginia massacre is only one facet of the fight against gun crime. The deaths of college students who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time is unquestionably more tragic than gangland drive-bys, but it is still the case that today's killings represent 30 amongst many thousands every year in the US.

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Good post.

I'll just add, that as tragic as the events like Virginia Tech and Columbine are, I'll bet there is a greater chance of being struck by lightning than there is of being the victim of a mass murderer gone crazy with a gun.

[Borodog]

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On another note, why didn't the university cancel classes today when they knew there was a known killer unapprehended on campus?

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Probably because it looked like a domestic homicide and the shooter had apparently left campus.

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It really doesn't get simpler than this. You have 1,000s of students, a murder on campus, and a murderer on the loose with a gun whose whereabouts are unknown. Do you really need to know much more than this to cancel classes and put everyone on high alert. Do you really need to put the above facts in context before you make a decision?

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Come on. It's a 2600 acre campus with hundreds of buildings, and it looked like a domestic incident. When the cops descend on a homicide scene in a home, do they evacuate the entire subdivision? No, of course not.

[latefordinner]

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I could be wrong, as I often am, but don't people in Iraq fight the US Soldiers who have tanks and helecopters, etc etc with mostly guns?

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Well the insurgents are mostly killing Iraqi civilians, not US soldiers, and they are mostly using suicide bombing and improvised explosives, not having firefights

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And anyway what is the 'government' going to do with their helecopters and bombs, blow up towns with taxpayers and stores, etc?

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nah, I could never imagine the government doing anything like that

<quote>the government would be fighting a war on their own soil so they don't really want to destroy the place.</quote>

those in power rarely act proportionally when they perceive that power is being threatened - view the recent green scare that has landed people in prison for 25+ years for burning a few SUVs, and 5+ years for running a website

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And if it's irrelevant why get rid of the guns?

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I don't want to derail this thread completely. I just said that 1) I would prefer to live among people where no one owned guns. 2) I don't support gun control laws 3) that I think the original justification for the 2nd amendment is now fairly irrelevant and that if you are arguing against gun control it makes more sense to use other arguments, and that if you are arguing for gun control the 2nd amendment isn't an automatic "stfu bill of rights hater"

[pdjplano]

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Obviously we agree, but I'll point out one other thing:

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also, someone mentioned that cops are 100% trained for guns/shooting situations. that is laughable, the average cop is woefully undertrained and does VERY poorly in high stress shooting situations, that is well known and well documented. but that's another topic i'm sure

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It isn't only a matter of their training ... they simply can't be everywhere, all the time. The idea that anyone would rely only on the protection from the police for your safety is crazy, and the cops will tell you so. They can't always be there, and when they aren't you better be able to defend yourself.

NCAces

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yeah, that is a good addition, the cops aren't there to protect and serve so much as to investigate the aftermath and try to catch the bad guys to prevent the future bad things...

relying on police to protect you in the US is incredibly naive.

[Borodog]

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There is very little fighting done with guns in Iraq against US forces. The majority of the fighting is small groups using bombs of one descript or another.

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this is laughable, care to share where you are coming up with this 'factoid'?

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Even if true, it doesn't help the anti-gunner's case much as it's not that hard to make a bomb. McVeigh killed ~170 people and destroyed a large building with fertilizer and diesel fuel.

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This is why any farmer can end up on this nightly news with live feeds from his "compound" and pictures of the inside of his shed showing his "bomb making materials."

[latefordinner]

only if that farmer voices disapproval of the US government. same as always. I can pay taxes to pay for the government to teach people how to blow [censored] up, but if I put up a webpage with the exact same information mixed in with essays about the evils of the government I'm likely going to jail.

Violence that moves down the hierarchy is seen as normal. Violence that moves up it is seen as unthinkable.

[nef]

Just a quick search on British news websites shows that the handgun ban has not made gun crime disappear in the UK.

I am one of the gun guys in favor of recognizing an adults right to self defense. This includes at a college like VT. Ditto on all the above excellent arguments about how this would be moral and effective.

I just also want to say that I think part of the problem is our society's irrational attitude towards violence, mainly in the school system. We are taught to avoid violence at any cost, told to walk away. We are not allowed to defend ourselves, and will be punished the same as the aggressor (at school). Lies are propogated by the government that resistance is not wise, just give them what they want. WHAT IF ALL THEY WANT IS FOR YOU TO DIE? (Illinois State Police on self defense BTW the ISP site used to say on that site that half of all women who use a gun shoot the wrong person. It also said knives were too dangerous for self defense against RAPISTS. We sent letters to ask for their sources. it no longer says that.) Your life is worth protecting, with violence if necessary.

Here are some links to read about citizens defending themselves with guns:

Gun defense blog

2nd Amendment news digest

Operation Self Defense

Here is a story about a city with some of the strictest gun laws having a major increase in crime. The proposed solution... more gun laws. Boston Crime OF course they always point to the gun laws of NH and VT being the problem. Why is the crime so low in those states?

To the anti-gunners, calling for more gun control is just a knee jerk reaction, they don't even know what the laws are... Here is a case where the Albany mayor proposed some laws that already exist in NY:

Albany gun law oops

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I suspect there was just some bad communication somewhere. In any case I wouldn't depend on university officials to correctly make decisions like this "on the fly."

[Osprey]

Come on people. The number of gun deaths in this country is staggering. No guns, no gun deaths, simple as that. We should get them completely off the streets- if you really want to protect the homestead, use a knife or a bat. Europeans seem to do fine without guns all over the place, we could t0o.

[BCPVP]

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No guns, no gun deaths, simple as that.

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No, it is not that simple.

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We should get them completely off the streets

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We can't even do this with drugs and at least with drugs there is active support to do this.

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if you really want to protect the homestead, use a knife or a bat.

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Ever hear the expression, "don't bring a knife to a gun fight"?

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Europeans seem to do fine without guns all over the place, we could t0o.

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They pay for it in other ways, like higher crimes for other weapons and the occasional genocide.