New Fight Question

[blackize]

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it's the mix that's most effective in 1 on 1 fighting, which is not the case here.

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Sweet Jesus, you've said this twice. Read the [censored] thread. David specifies like 2 pages in that this is one on one only.

[Assani Fisher]

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David,

I think I'd rank them as follows:

World's best ultimate fighting champion
World's best karate and or other Asian martial arts.
World's most elite Navy Seal as far as hand to hand combat is concerned.
World's best boxer
World's best real streetfighter from a gang or whatever.

[/ QUOTE ]agreed

[pvn]

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The top SEAL may have killed many men himself, but very very few of those kills will be weaponless hand to hand combat.

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Even fewer of those will be against a highly-skilled hand-to-hand combat specialist. And even fewer of those will be in a situation where the SEAL didn't have the advantage of surprise.

And yes, SEALS often work in conditions that are potentially life-threatening. However, its extremely unlikely that any particular SEAL has been in on a particular mission where his expected likelyhood of dying (going into the mission) is as high as it would be in this case. In this case, I doubt the SEAL will ever find himself much more than a 55-45 favorite. How many missions are SEALS deployed with those kind of odds?

PS: I'm talking out of my ass here, so I'm more than happy to see any argument to the contrary.

[pete fabrizio]

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The top SEAL may have killed many men himself, but very very few of those kills will be weaponless hand to hand combat.

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Even fewer of those will be against a highly-skilled hand-to-hand combat specialist. And even fewer of those will be in a situation where the SEAL didn't have the advantage of surprise.

And yes, SEALS often work in conditions that are potentially life-threatening. However, its extremely unlikely that any particular SEAL has been in on a particular mission where his expected likelyhood of dying (going into the mission) is as high as it would be in this case. In this case, I doubt the SEAL will ever find himself much more than a 55-45 favorite. How many missions are SEALS deployed with those kind of odds?

PS: I'm talking out of my ass here, so I'm more than happy to see any argument to the contrary.

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I also think saying "SEAL" is kind of limiting. SEALs are badass, but they're probably not the most elite fighters in the military. Delta Force recruits from SEALs as well as from special forces and rangers and who knows what else because almost nothing about Delta Force is public. And if not Delta force, there are a number of super-elite military units around the world.

[Mickey Brausch]

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Arguing about fighting in general is very stupid, because hurting other people is very stupid in every form.

[/ QUOTE ]Why is it stupid? Because our minds examine fighting, in our day and age, in the context of our circumstances nevironment, and come up with the conclusion that hurting other people is mostly stupid. (We would not give the same answer if we were born into a Rio slum. We probably wouldn't even ask the question.)

But, though stupid for us, or some of us, fighting is quite obviously deeply ingrained in us. (All of us.) Therefore, it is very much recommended that we "argue about fighting"! STDs are "stupid" too but it pays to argue about them, because we have them. They are part of our environment. Arguing about AIDS doesn't mean endorsing AIDS.

Mickey Brausch

[Mickey Brausch]

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Sure they push themselves to the limit physically to win matches, but are they shot at routinely? Have they persevered while their buddies were blown to all hell and still performed their duties?

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You do realize this is one on one hand to hand combat that we are discussing right? Being shot at or watching your buddies die while you do your job has zero bearing on a man to man physical fight.

[/ QUOTE ]I don't care about the problem itself, any longer, since the interesting part of the exercise is over. But you bring up the aspect of psychological background, which I think it quite important. I cannot understand how you so easily dismiss above the natural proclivities of the persons in the various categories, or the psychological set-up up that their training brings into relief. IMO this is an important factor. (For example, in a fight between two boxers of generally equal physical and sport abilities, I would pick the hungry campesino boxer over the good priest who also dabbles on boxing, generally speaking, if the rules were changed to headbutts allowed and no gloves.)

I would speculate that people who take up boxing, wrestling, martial arts, etc (some of whom progress to UFC-type fighting), are people who find ways to channel off their natural aggression, an aggression which is already above average. Such a choice is a good choice for them, and a good choice overall for society. (We presume that if they become vicious thugs, society suffers.)

But the people who join gangs (the "street fighters" in Sklansky's example) or the SEALs guys, make a whole different "choice"! They "choose" to follow a path that involves, by definition, killing. These are people that elect themselves out of the crowd as people who have no problem (in fact, some would welcome it) with the prospect of killing someone else. (That's theoretically true of most professional army people but we're staying with the Sklansky example.)

So, all in all, the street fighter and the military man probably have a more appropriate psychological background for killing. Make of it what you will.

Mickey Brausch

[Mickey Brausch]

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all 5 of them will be in the ring at the same time.

[/ QUOTE ] Sklansky clarified that this is not the set up he has in mind.

[DeadMoney_J]

I have experience within the Special Operations side of the military to include relatively extensive interaction/training/operating with the NSW community. I feel very confident that the SEAL would not be the victor in this contest (assuming the outlined format). I also feel confident that the VAST majority if not all SEALs would agree with this statement.

If I can remember, next time I talk to one of my bros that's a NSWU/JSOC operator I'll bring this up. I actually expect them to laugh and say no F***n way are they favored here.

[Mickey Brausch]

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SEALs spend approximately 0% of their time learning to kill with their bare hands.

[/ QUOTE ]That's incorrect. But, let's not blow it out of proportion. Let's accept for the problem's sake that SEAL-type military men do learn how to kill people "in close hand-to-hand combat", as the OP states the premises.

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[SEALs] spend the majority of their time training with to be stealthy, kill with guns, kill with knives, and use explosives.

[/ QUOTE ]This is an important factor, indeed, and one that might have been overlooked by the likes of me, in this sense:

The military guys have a different approach when fighting-to-the-death than the other guys. I mean, the other guys are already "on the ring" doing hand-to-hand combat -- it's just that they are programmed to stop at a certain point because they are forbidden from killing their opponent!

On the other hand, the military man does less hand-to-hand training than them, but is more trained and prepared, if not inclined, for killing per se! Make of it what you will.

Mickey Brausch

PS : I now realize that the set-up itself of formal fighting (boxing, martial arts, etc) is what generally stops fighters from killing each other within the rules of the game, e.g. a boxer killing another boxer through blows - not with a knife! So, the natural inclination to kill one's opponent is not wiped out; it's still there. The boxer does get wild and murderous. We merely distract that impulse and stop it in time. Hmm.

[Sanchez1Fan]

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I have experience within the Special Operations side of the military to include relatively extensive interaction/training/operating with the NSW community. I feel very confident that the SEAL would not be the victor in this contest (assuming the outlined format). I also feel confident that the VAST majority if not all SEALs would agree with this statement.

If I can remember, next time I talk to one of my bros that's a NSWU/JSOC operator I'll bring this up. I actually expect them to laugh and say no F***n way are they favored here.

[/ QUOTE ]i've been waiting 25 pages for a guy like you to show up!