"The Well" aejones style

[holla]

http://www.pokerhand.org/?864587
Villain is lag.And I guess I was a tag.Should I fold?

[aejones]

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http://www.pokerhand.org/?864587
Villain is lag.And I guess I was a tag.Should I fold?

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absolutely not. he will have JT/overpair/hearts WAY more than he needs to to make this call profitable. if he hit a bigger two pair on the turn, chalk it up to variance.

[killphilNI]

How do you adjust your play once you're playing for 200bb+?

Awesome thread btw.

[aejones]

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this is the best well I've read, thanks ae

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By a decent margin, great job.

So I'd like to have you address the controversial topic of folding KK preflop. In the past I would post hands where a straight forward multitabling tag would 4 bet preflop and I am holding KK, knowing that I am up at worst another KK, and asking what I should do in that situation. The consensus always seems to be, if he's got AA he's got AA, but you should never fold KK preflop. Someone even calculated that only once out of 9000 hands will you face an KK vs AA situation.

But I've still added this to my repertoire, again only when all signs are pointing to this being the type of tag who will never look to get his stack in preflop with worse than KK against another tag. For the record, my stats run about 16/12 and even though I mix it up more than those stats would suggest (more by floating and occasionally double barrelling than 3betting light) I don't think most view me as anything other than tightish. Do you agree that there are spots when folding KK preflop is correct?

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Yea, I've folded KK twice in 6m. The first time, it was a terrible fold. It looked like it should have been a good fold, the way the action went, but a guy pushed with two jacks and later showed them... it was at the beginning of the session, and later i found out the guy was a pretty big donk, and I was not happy.

Another time, I raise from the button, guy 3-bets to 44 or something, I pop it to 150 because we're 600 deep. His stats are like 24/5 preflop, and I didn't remember anything about him. So he shoves almost instantly, and in the chat he says "I'll show." I mucked before I let myself even think about the situation, and he showed aces. I posted that hand in the MSNL, I'm really glad that guy wanted 100% of 150 instead of 80% of 600, what a nice fellow.

In general, I'm sure there are situations that folding kings preflop at a 6 max table are correct. However, the more you move up, with all the leveling going on, I've seen hands and gone "[censored], I'm positive he's got AA" and sometimes he does, and sometimes he shows up with A8s on a super-duper tricky watch this fold equity type of bluff that is supposed to look so strong it folds everything but kings and aces. So, I never really have to worry about folding kings preflop, because it's pretty awful in most spots in the games that I play in.

That said, just go with your reads. I wouldn't fold them, but my image is different than yours. If your read is really that this guy is so nitty he's not thinking enough to bluff here ever, then just fold. And remember, folding is always 0EV. There is an opportunity cost to folding, just like in business, but it is always 0EV.

[aejones]

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Great well.

Do you think the Jkratzer (v citanul) thread was a good example of merging ranges? Basically JKratzer tried to make a thin value raise, merging his range between his monsters and bluffs hoping to get a hero call from a worse hand.

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It was a great example. Kratzer shoved his two kings because Citanul never thinks that he'll shove an overpair there. Which means, the likelyhood of Cit calling JK should be, IN THEORY, the EXACT same with AT or 64 (64 was trips). Now, it usually isn't, because Cit probably isn't on a high enough level for it to be (he may recognize that they hold the same relative strength here, I'm not sure).

However, if JK starts pushing over pairs there, he's going to merge his range and be more difficult to play against. From an outsiders point of view, there is no doubt that his push looks fairly desperate and might get him a hero call on occasion. However, I think the EV of calling has to be higher, since the reason that the bluff would work is because the shove looks so strong- therefore Cit shouldn't be able to call his shove with something that JK beats.

From Cit's point of view, if he's going to CC the flop and float, his river bet is [censored] terrible. Don't let anyone tell you that it's good. JK's shove in this spot is such a sick, sick value-merge that Cit should never expect it, in theory. Since he should never expect to get VALUE shoved by a better hand, he should ONLY lead the river if he thinks that JK's bluff RAISE range on the river is VERY high, and at 400NL no way anyone bluff raises the river enough, especially since JK has trouble repping much.

So, while it's a good spot in theory to merge your range, I think calling is a spot with higher EV.

Oh, and Cit should always check that river, a bet is bad, did I mention that?

[aejones]

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Could you give a quick call/3bet range in either blind against a decent lagtag kinda player who opens like 40-50% from the button ?

I´m guessing that you are mixing it up with some hands though, but could you tell which ones you think plays better by calling or raising most of the time and why ?

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Honestly, I change it up a lot. I rarely call big pairs QQ+ or AK from the blinds, because I 3-bet so much and they're at the top end of my range.

I like calling mid pairs more than most OOP, where almost all people 3-bet them. I call because I CC a lot of blank flops, I have set value obviously, and 3-betting loses some of their value IF I get 4-bet. So, I like to call midpairs more than most. I also like to call hands like QJs where some don't. Read that thread on 3-betting QJs that I linked a while back in this thread if you haven't yet. It's sick good about why not to 3-bet QJs, and arguements that it's good to do to mix up your play. I like 3-betting 56s type hands because often it's too hard to CC profitably, and there is deception when I hit flops, and I have no showdown value without improving, so it plays better with the lead.

Meh, that's the best I can do. Too much of it has to do with who is opening and where from and what our short history has been. I mix it up like crazy, definitely have to at midstakes.

Oh, and 3-bet a little more from the bb, especially if the bb is tricky when you're the sb. And squeeze, do it with air quite a bit, not really with medium or small pairs that can win big pots after the flop.

[aejones]

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AE,

" What you need to gather, is that we do NOT have to show a PROFIT with KTs from MP, or 56s. What happens, is that by opening these hands and playing more pots, is that we get MORE profit and action from our HUGE hands, so look at your profit with AA jump since you're not a nit anymore."

Wow. I figured since I was losing with these hands in EP they weren't profitable, what I didn't realise was that the $$ was going elsewhere due to the fact that I was, in fact, opening these hands.

One of "those" moments [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] <3

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Good, I hope this thread gives out a lot of those moments. Also, fwiw, most high stakes players didn't even know that was true (the stuff about showing profit with SCs), and they all panicked a little under a year ago when they found out they were losing players with 78s).

[aejones]

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AE,

Thanks very much for this post dood. Hopefully some of us will use it to your disadvantage in the future [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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As soon as you decided to read my well, you signed a waiver that you must CF to me in all pots. If you didn't know that, read the fine print.

[aejones]

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How do you adjust your play once you're playing for 200bb+?

Awesome thread btw.

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Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. I specialize in playing very deep.

200bbs is moderately deep, so I'll cover all areas as games get bigger.

First of all, know that I believe the concept of "you have a one pair hand, it's worth 100bbs" is the dumbest [censored] thing ever. You want to put your money in with the best hand. If you have to call 150bbs on the river to pick off a bluff, then just [censored] do it, don't worry about "I have top pair no kicker, Sklansky says I'm a tool if I play it for more than 50bbs." That's pretty stupid thinking.

While it's stupid thinking, it doesn't mean you should necessarily go broke light. It's just all so player specific. Basically, you're going to want to tighten up when the real money goes in and start playing for pot control ASAP. You want to be able to dictate how big the pot is going to be, since your final "ALL IN" call is often not enough to protect you from playing for one stack.

At 200bbs, things don't change much. You start calling 3-bets more light. I laugh my ass off when button opens to 30 and I make it 100 from the sb and he folds, even though we're 200 bbs deep. If he's folding 86s there, ever, IMO he is an idiot. Those are the kinds of hands that you WANT to get 3-bet with, you are BEGGING to get 3-bet with. If I open 53s, and a blind 3-bets me, I'm going to call just about any reasonable raise if we're 2500bbs deep. I mean, I want to call with all these unlikely hands and hit a stackworthy flop. I've worked so hard to get my rep, now it's time to have my image pay off.

My biggest pot ever entailed me making quads twos with K2s in a 3-bet pot HU and 300bbs deep. It went like this:

5/10 HU. I open K2s to 25 from the button, villian 3-bets me to 110, I call. Flop is 6 2 2. He leads 180, I raise to 550, he calls. Turn is a 5. He checks, I check. River is a 2. He leads 995, I shove for 3k, he calls. 6500 dollarish pot.

Now, what does this illustrate about deepstack poker? Well, he had JJ there and IMO he went broke too light. I think he played preflop and the flop well, even the turn, but leading the river is terrible IMO. My hand DOES look like 77-TT when I chek the turn (hence, my line pwns obv) but I don't think he's getting any value out of betting the river, because I know he's never ever bluffing, and my hand is allegedly face up (as something it isn't, because I'm so tricky bwahaha). He should prob CC the river, since I can have QQ-AA too (I wouldn't 4-bet them, even this deep. I hate four betting).

Basically, you're going to want to play a whole bunch of hands for pot control. You are going to want to 4-bet AA and KK more, incase they have a strong second best hand preflop, but many times I will just see a flop with big hands deep. Play position even more deep. Don't get in trouble with a bunch of marginal hands OOP and deep, it's [censored] dangerous and costly. If it's at all possible to see flops, you're going to want to see them with hands like QJs, 57s, pocket pairs and even hands like 89o more, and hands like AJ and KT much less.

If I'm 300bbs deep with someone, they open MP, I'm calling (and can probably do so profitably, very profitbaly) from the button with 87o and no regrets. Deep stacked poker is just so sick. Don't ever play it with anyone you're afraid of, either. Playing deep with someone like Samo or Bld or Strasser would be intense, you can't ever just try and milk people for value or whatnot becuase of the room to manuever.

What I mean is, I played a hand vs Ansky HU at 10-20 live in the Bahamas. We were like 8k or so deep to start the hand. I tried to get value out of TPTK on the end after I played it slow the whole hand, and he pwned me with a river CR bluff. Really sick, because at the time 5k (about the size of the CR I guess) was a ton of money to me (still is, but less so now, if I could have made a sick read now, I might be able to call it, but 2 months ago it was more of my roll).

Live, deepest I've ever been was like 600bbs with some guy. We were going to a lot of flops, but there were no instances where we both hit flops hard. Also, you'll notice guys start jacking it up 5-10bbs preflop live. We had open raises to 150 at 10-20 regularly. I don't recommend this necessarily. I think you should absolutely raise the size of your preflop raises, especially to adjust for deepness and cut down on implied odds (pretty tough), but don't go overboard. If it takes a 10x raise preflop to get somewhere (like you're playing 2-5 live and everyone has 500 stacks and open raises to 40 or 50) then chances are you're going to want to play tight. Unless you're super deep, when you can open up.

Know that depth live plays so much more passively. I value bet half pot on the river with TP2K sooo many times to get called by an overpair or two pair. Sometimes people will say they're playing scared, but it's just the general knack for people to play more passively live and be more careful about where the money goes in.

[snakekilla88]

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Snakekilla88 (I think thats his tag on 2+2) used to play 200NL as far as I know, took a shot at 600NL, ran insane, and now regularly plays 600 and 1000NL because of makes a ton of money from taking a shot. Playing way above your roll is NOT good, but taking controlled shots, where you say "I will play 4 tables until I get rich or lose 3 buy ins" is VERY +EV.



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I was a pretty bankroll nit, who grinded tons of 200nl. So it wasnt me really taking a shot (bankroll wise) it was more me stepping out of my comfort zone. But I still agree with what you wrote on taking shots, [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img].

This well is incredible ae, and makes me respect you a ton more, even though I always liked you.