Dateline NBC "to catch a predator", possible entrapment?

[ScottyP431]

BCPVP,

For someone who likes to try and reference logic so much you are really, really stupid and have in no way come close to an analogy that makes sense.

If I hire someone to kill my wife, someone who only kills wifes as a company policy, and he shows up to kill her, but she ISN'T really my wife by is instead just my neighbor, is that a crime? The wife he thinks he is going to kill doesn't really exist.

If you go into a bank and try to rob it, but there is no money there... ITS A CRIME. It doesn't matter that you only "thought" there was money there, that is not a thought crime.

You're "logic" that the crime could not be completed is infinitely regressive. If there was a real child there at the time you could say, "the cops were there and would never allow the guy to bang the kid, therefore not a crime". Whether or not the child is there has no effect on the criminal conduct of the wanna be pedophile.

Try logic on your own stupid internet poker analogy. This doesn't make sense, at the COMPLETION of internet poker there is no victim, in the child molestation sting the perpetrator is STOPPED BEFORE COMPLETION thus preventing a victim. You are comparing an incomplete crime to a complete one, not very logical.

[BCPVP]

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If I hire someone to kill my wife, someone who only kills wifes as a company policy, and he shows up to kill her, but she ISN'T really my wife by is instead just my neighbor, is that a crime? The wife he thinks he is going to kill doesn't really exist.

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You've added enough details to the analogy to screw it up, I see. Is the guy now going to kill the neighbor?

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If you go into a bank and try to rob it, but there is no money there... ITS A CRIME. It doesn't matter that you only "thought" there was money there, that is not a thought crime.

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Other people are usually endangered by bank robbers. Bank robbers are also breaking other laws and, more importantly imo, harming people whether their attempt succeeds or not. No children are going to be harmed during the PJ sting because they aren't there.

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You're "logic" that the crime could not be completed is infinitely regressive. If there was a real child there at the time you could say, "the cops were there and would never allow the guy to bang the kid, therefore not a crime".

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There is still a real potential victim if there was a kid. He could complete his act if the police didn't stop him. What happens if the police don't stop the guy in the PJ sting? Who, specifically, is harmed?

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Try logic on your own stupid internet poker analogy. This doesn't make sense, at the COMPLETION of internet poker there is no victim, in the child molestation sting the perpetrator is STOPPED BEFORE COMPLETION thus preventing a victim. You are comparing an incomplete crime to a complete one, not very logical.

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I was only comparing poker insofar as it is a victimless crime as is these particular PJ stings. I don't believe I was comparing internet poker to an inchoate offense. Reading comprehension ftw.

[ScottyP431]

Reading comprehension? I created a new analogy, pretty clearly, and your only response is "youve added detail to screw it up" , yes I added detail to eliminate your moronic objection, good one.

Who is endangered if a robber walks into a bank with a pen and writes "give me the money"? What other crime is he committing?

There is no chance the child will be harmed if police is there. Zero. Nice try.

Replace "internet poker" with any "victim less crime" you listed. Your point still makes no sense.

You are a moron ftw

[BCPVP]

At least someone can discuss this like an adult without resorting to insults. This is a fairly accurate representation.

[luckyjimm]

Eh, why did you all ignore my last post?

[BEP]

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Isn't it also true that the Internet enables some of these guys to become predators when otherwise they'd have let it lie? I don't believe all the guys who go into chatrooms would have been hanging around outside the school gates / shopping mall in earlier times. I think the Internet dramatically lowers the difficulty of making contact, blurs their boundary between fantasy and reality, and allows them to disassociate themselves from what they're doing. As I said earlier, there are levels of badness. I'm talking about the middle-aged divorcee who's lonely, depressed, starting to drink too much, and finds himself getting into this [censored], not the hardcore career paedo. The former type, looking for low-level non-nude or non-explicit nude images and sometimes trying to make contact with teenagers, are the ones I feel least comfortable with TCAP exposing. They need help; but once they've been exposed, the die is cast.

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jimm, just because the internet makes it easier to be a predator doesn't make the crime any more or less vile. the internet is the ideal place for these guys because they can take the time to psychologically groom children into thinking that sex with adults is something acceptable.

the guys that actually show up for these stings actively search for kids to have sex with. these guys are on Myspace contacting underage profiles... they are in chat rooms where children are known to frequent and they are messaging them. when they show up at houses after weeks of chatting with these decoys it is their intent to have sex with a kid. there is no more blur between fantasy and reality in all of these cases. the men deserve what they get.

and there are massive differences in the way each state (and each county/judge) deals with the sentencing of these men. in the georgia sting many of the men were given 3-5 year sentences and lifelong probation. in Long Beach, CA, the men all received a few years probation and no jail time.

[luckyjimm]

I am uncomfortable calling teenagers "children" or "kids", and conflating paedos with ephebophiles. I don't know, one just seems much less worse than the other to me. I tend to assume sexually mature teenagers are pretty smart and able to think for themselves.

[ElSapo]

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Entrapment for prostitution = idiotic

Entrapment for child molestors = more power to them.

If you don't really know the difference between these 2, not sure what to tell ya.

b

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While I find child molestation as disgusting as everyone else, I'm not about to start tossing away rights and giving the police more power. They have enough already.

[otnemem]

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BCPVP,

For someone who likes to try and reference logic so much you are really, really stupid and have in no way come close to an analogy that makes sense.

If I hire someone to kill my wife, someone who only kills wifes as a company policy, and he shows up to kill her, but she ISN'T really my wife by is instead just my neighbor, is that a crime? The wife he thinks he is going to kill doesn't really exist.

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Scotty, I agree with your position, but this is a terrible analogy and does nothing to further your argument. (A) The wife is not imaginary. There is a real woman. Just because she's not at the house at the time, it doesn't mean she fails to exist. This isn't the same as in the pedophile situation, where there never is a real underage girl or boy. (B) If the hitman comes and accidentally kills the neighbor instead, she's dead, thus the crime of murder. I don't even know what your point is here.

[otnemem]

I have a question for people who are opposed to PJ's process.

Would your position be different if the process was altered a bit? Like this:

Real 12 y/o logs in to a chat room, waits for a predator to approach them.
Real 12 y/o chats with predator, until the predator initiates a conversation of a sexual nature.
Adult employee (or police officer) then takes over control of the account.
Adult employee sets up time, place, etc. to meet with predator.

In this case the argument can be made that there is a real potential victim, but the police are intervening in what could turn into a dangerous situation. I see no difference between this and, say, a parent who finds out their child is being harrassed online by an older man, reports the activity, and the police perform a sting using the child's account.