Knife VS Bat, who wins?

[Blarg]

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I'm not dismissing it. If I were dismissing it, I would be saying the bat, being so much slower than a knife, would be far easier to time, so the guy most likely to get off the first blow is the guy with the knife. And if that's the case, the first blow of the bat, if it comes at all, will be trivial, and the bat guy will be pretty much blown out of the water by either the first knife attack or all the subsequent knife attacks to come.

Guy with the knife IS much more mobile, fast, and deceptive than guy with the bat.

But I'm still assuming the guy with the bat gets off a very solid swing, enough to break an arm, maybe a rib. With the slower weapon, that's a pretty good score. The bat is being given pretty decent credit here.

Don't forget, too, that a knife is also intimidating. Neither party is likely to be feeling perfectly calm or all that great about what they're doing.

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This is a pretty naive post.


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Explain.

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To say that the person with the knife is MUCH more mobile and fast is wrong.


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Wrong.

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Also, the bat person SHOULD NOT be using baseball type swings, he would be choked up,


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He would? I doubt it. Though I would be surprised if he didn't modify from the baseball stance and swing a bit, we're talking about what reasonably desperate people would most likely do, which is not come here first to take your instruction on how to hold a bat. A fair guess is that an American would handle the bat pretty similarly to the way he'd held bats whenever he's held them in his life.

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using vertical 45 degree angle shots that require the person with the knife to block their head. the second swing with the bat is almost immediate in this case, because one can swing from both sides quite easily.


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The second swing being faster is nice, but not determinative of anything. Especially since the knifer's whole goal is to be sure you don't take that second swing -- at least if he can't be sure you haven't taken the swing. Nobody in this thing has free reign to do whatever he wants without interruption, neither batter nor knifer.

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A good vertical hit will not only shatter the forearm of the blocker, it has a good chance of connecting with the head.


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The head is an extremely mobile target, and a vertical swing with a baseball bat is a narrow approach that maximizes your chance to miss it. It also provides for an exceptionally slow recovery, as reversing the momentum and angle from a downward chop doesn't have leverage in its favor, nor is it a natural motion that people do a lot of, much less with speed or power. And forget deception.

You are giving batter's every move here enormous credit, some of it unwarranted.

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if you get in a headshot it is close to a lock, because the knifer will be seriously disoriented.


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No kidding, but good luck.

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if not, the second swing is already coming as the knifer lunges. bat man connects with head on second swing, as blocking forearm is [censored] and knife arm is attempting to stab.


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This is piling one fantasy scenario on top of another.

1. Batter's blow lands
2. Batter's blow is precise
3. Batter's blow lands with all or most of its force
4. Batter's blow is a freebie because knifer has not charged in to disrupt it and get into range for his own strikes
5. Batter reversing his swing after his first strike is neither slow nor telegraphic nor lacking in power, even despite it being an unnatural movement that has to fight momentum and potential balance problems
6. Batter, with a two-handed weapon, unbalanced weapon remains somehow faster than a man with a one-handed weapon that weighs virtually nothing
7. If batter doesn't hit his ideal target on his very first strike, he's guaranteed to hit it on the second
8. Batter is not disabled, hurt, seriously wounded, or even thrown off his balance or similarly disrupted by either knifer crashing into him, or his first blow either missing or landing, to the extent that his second swing is delivered as if it were in some kind of vaccuum and not even affected by his OWN actions?

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knife stab, even to body, IS NOT GAME OVER FOR THE BAT MAN. people continue to live even with collapsed lungs and blood pouring out of them for quite awhile, especially with adrenaline raging. people survive with like 25 knife wounds often because knife deaths occur from loss of blood, not instantaneous death (unless heart or neck, which are near impossible).


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Game is not over for knife man just because bat man owns a bat, either. People also survive vicious beatings.

Surviving 25 stab wounds is not the norm, so there's not that much point bringing it up. You forget we are assuming this is an ordinary fight, not one between superheroes or people on PCP. You also forget that this is a fight to the death, not a turf war or a bar fight.

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taking stock - once knife has made first lunge, bat has broken knife forearm and also connected with knifer upperbody cleanly - either head and/or neck area. A knife wound has not taken down the bat man, on average, i'd say he is runnin at least 80% of his maximal ability.


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Too much fantasy piled too high. Disallows anything disabling about knife wounds while cranking up bat damage to a complete freebie plus another magically fast, powerful, and deceptive perfect shot - at a minimum.

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the value of the bat is being able to immobilize / disorient your opponent easily.


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Good luck on the whole "fight" and "easily" concepts going together. Even more so when weapons are involved. What color is the sky in your world?

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once this happens, headshots become easier and you can pummel someones skull in IMMEDIATELY


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As Hemingway wrote, Wouldn't it be lovely to think so?

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. by contrast, it is inaccurate to suggest that a single knife stab, which is likely glancing rather than deep and piercing,


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You are pulling this out of your butt.

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is going to be instantly fatal. it may not even immobilize the bat man significantly. it should not even be difficult to keep the knife person at bay. if he charges, his momentum connecting with a bat swing will steal tons of the strength he had behind a knife jab. if he doesnt charge, bat man can continually keep the knife person at bay.

people in medieval battles routinely took serious wounds that only became overtly apparent after the fighting, unless it was a major arterie or organ. This is not counterstrike, knifes dont easily SINK into people like jello


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I'm passing this by because it's getting way pointless.

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Article: discusses fatality rates of knife wounds
http://timlambert.org/1993/10/knives-00000/
One excerpt:


"95% confidence intervals for mortalities calculated from (Annals of Surgery 179 pp 639) are 1%-2% for abdominal stab wounds"


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Now at least we aren't completely in fantasy land. But we aren't saying anything definitive either.

1. Are these wounds caused by fights to the death?
2. Are abdominal stab wounds the only type of wounds a knife is capable of creating?
3. Are abdominal stab wounds even the most likely type of knife injury?

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News Story: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19570770/


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"Police said the 40-year-old man walked into Delia's Place on Agnes Saturday night with three stab wounds in his chest."


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So a guy walks into a bar. Does he have a parrot? Are there a priest, a jew, and a rabbi near? One anecdote is like another, pretty useless.

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It's not game over with a slash or stab to the tummy folks

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Nobody was arguing it was, and it's not relevant to the discussion at hand, so you seem to be talking to yourself here.

On another note that comes through from your post, you give virtually no credit to either the knife or the knifer, not even in his most obvious advantages, like speed and deception. But the one I'm here suggesting you give more credit to is simply the number of wounds that a knife can create in just a few seconds, and how little leverage, balance, and strength are required to make them. A guy with a knife and a guy with a bat are at nowhere near the same speeds. If you don't think you can be stabbed or deeply slashed several times in a single second, you're mistaken.

Your understanding of speed, initiative, and momentum are very deeply off.

[CrazyEyez]

Holy [censored] Blarg, that was a long post, even for you.

Still lobbying for video trials. Step up, people.

[krubban]

How come noones taken their friends out and filmed a fake deathmatch yet? Use a dildo as a knife and something batlike but non-incapacitating as a bat. Put the video on youtube and we'll hopefully get a good idea of how fast knifeman closes and how severe a blow the batman has time to get off. Don't know what you should use as a bat that behaves as a real bat but still doesn't knock your friend out though...

[Blarg]

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I'm taking bat. I'm also not going to stand with my feet planted waiting for the guy with the knife to run at me nor try to backpedal away from an initial blow. I'm gonna move toward the guy with the knife and control how far I am from him instead of him lurking just outside my range and waiting for a spot to jet in.


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So, simply because you say so, you are going to win the battle for distance, which is the most important part of this fight? Overconfident much?

Also, if you are backing up with a bat, you are no threat, and it is an instant charge toward you.

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Also, you can get off a swing in under a second and, although a knife is faster, if I hit you then its gonna slow you down enough for me to reload and swing again.


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Oh really? Nah. Where is your body at this point at this point compared to the knife guy's? At anywhere near good range for a bat swing, or is he right up in your face? With a knife?

You for sure aren't stabbed or slashed when you come together, disrupting your second swing like the knifer's second stab or slash is disrupted? Nor knocked off balance yourself?

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You're at least going to be knocked off balance even if you protect yourself with an arm.


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Good chance. However, you don't need much balance for a stab and virtually none for a slash. Batter is the one who desperately needs distance, balance, and time to wind up.

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Once either fighter becomes somewhat immobile the fight is over. Killing the person won't be an issue at this point.


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Agreed. And if knife guy is on top of you, being immobile is your worry, not his. If you can maintain not just distance, but an ideal distance, an exceedingly hard thing to do in a fight, then knife guy's loss is automatic. But that would be a pretty ideal scenario. Knife guy crashing into you, wounded or not, would be a more expected one. At which point your bat becomes all but useless.

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Your untrained fighters aren't going to know how to best deflect a bat blow and aren't going to have good enough balance or grappling skills to get and stay in close.


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Agree on deflection, but it won't always matter much.

On staying in close, that's not what matter's it's getting in close. Staying in close is easy. On getting in close, anyone who can charge can do it -- ideally you'd like a bit of timing or even some deception, but jamming forward is within anyone's powers.

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The people who have taken martial arts or even the people who end up in street fights aren't in the norm. Most guys have a few fights as kids or teens and never fight during adulthood.


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True, depending where you're from. For purposes of this discussion, it's effectively true.

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Take 2 random guys and there's no way the guy with the knife can even execute the type of strategy you all are proposing


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Running in doesn't really take much strategy at all, especially when NOT running in is basically suicide for the knifer. It's not even like he has a reasonable other choice. It's run in or die. So ... how unlikely is it that anyone is going to choose to at least attempt something other than death?

I will give you, as noted elsewhere above, that beginning fighters tend to do a lot of dodging and not be too aggressive sometimes. A fair amount of knifers will probably choose the wrong strategy, of waiting for a "miracle opening" while the batter gets his bat control and psychological dominance more and more in line and eventually swats him.

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while it is pretty easy for anyone to figure out that its best to swing a bat when they are just inside your range.

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Yep, batter's strats are few. A batter won't be tremendously far off if he sticks to any of the likely ways of doing things. A knifer, as agreed above, can make a disastrous choice pretty instinctively, if he's not thinking much.

[Blarg]

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Holy [censored] Blarg, that was a long post, even for you.

Still lobbying for video trials. Step up, people.

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I know. Whew. It was a gigantic post I had to respond to, and eventually I just skipped some out of exhaustion.

[krubban]

I think the righthanded knifer will win almost everytime if the batter swings as righthanded people usually do afaik. That is, the swing closing in from your left where your blocking arm is so you can mitigate the blow and get inside with your knifearm undamaged.

If the batter swings "backwards" or whatever you call it though i think he's got the advantage because that basically renders your blocking arm useless and exposes the knife arm. That way you're going to have a hard time getting in with a right handed stab without it getting deflected by the bat while hurting your arm at the same time. This is assuming that other right handed people are like me and lack the finesse with their left hand to get any kind of good stabs in at a moving target.

[Borodog]

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Holy [censored] Blarg, that was a long post, even for you.

Still lobbying for video trials. Step up, people.

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No [censored]. All you a-holes arguing that the other guy is a moran but won't step up to the wifflebat-paintbrush experiment SHUT THE [censored] UP.

[DonkeyKongSr]

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it's obvious knife will win, since once you pick up a bat, your feet become roots, and you can't move at all.

and apparently once you pick up a knife, you can move at super sonic speeds and not be be affected by pain.

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Don't forget that the knife instantly becomes one with the body and is undroppable.

[btmagnetw]

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Holy [censored] Blarg, that was a long post, even for you.

Still lobbying for video trials. Step up, people.

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No [censored]. All you a-holes arguing that the other guy is a moran but won't step up to the wifflebat-paintbrush experiment SHUT THE [censored] UP.

[/ QUOTE ]i will be willing to participate with anyone living in manhattan. i call bat side.

[NT!]

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Holy [censored] Blarg, that was a long post, even for you.

Still lobbying for video trials. Step up, people.

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No [censored]. All you a-holes arguing that the other guy is a moran but won't step up to the wifflebat-paintbrush experiment SHUT THE [censored] UP.

[/ QUOTE ]i will be willing to participate with anyone living in manhattan. i call bat side.

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i'll do it... let's try it both ways