"Jesus" advises Yang to stiff dealers?

[Ramon Scott]

10k entry, $600 of which is deducted for Harrah's administration of the event.

9.4k goes to prize pool

Every player that enters has 1.8 percent out of its contributed prize money given to dealers and floor staff as gratuity.

1.3 percent of the 1.8 percent goes to dealer tip pool.

Every player that enters is giving $122.20 to the dealer tip pool.

Now, maybe Ferguson could've said, "well, Jerry, you have already given $122.20 to the dealers, as did everybody who entered the main event, therefore, I would give ZERO."

It is important to note, that for those that say people who busted out did not contribute to the tipping, I would say, then why didn't they receive their $122.20 back.

Therefore, Mr. Yang contributed exactly the same as every other entrant, except for those that added an additional tip when cashing out.

I would say that I feel that if Mr. Yang knew that he gave $122.20 to the dealers ($174.60 total for the entire staff tip), that he would've given more, if not much more. Even 1-2 percent of 4.5 million (sans tax and 10 percent charity donation) could've meant an additional 50k gratuity).

Another example of this type of small 1.3-1.8 percent toke would be comparable in recreation poker's most famous prize - The Bad Beat Jackpot. While a typical player may give 1-3 dollars per hand in a regular cash game, the same player rarely gives just the same amount when receiving this prize.

A dealer that makes 15-25 dollars per half hour down can often make $200-$2000 dollars depending on the size of the jackpot. A regular player in a room that receives this windfall often likes to be generous with their regular dealers.

How about when the Pizza waitress just like week were waiting on her regular customers with the same grace and kindness that she always presented to her guests, which had befriended her by going to the restaurant each week. When the family learned of the waitresses hardship following family tragedy, they gave her a 10k tip, probably on the same $40 meal.

I have won two B&M tournaments. The first time I won, I tipped 25 percent of my winnings (like many have said in here, that is a personal choice). The second time I won, I gave 22 percent. I tipped this amount because I was playing in my favorite room to play in and felt very good about being generous. I enjoy the reputation I have about my gratuity habits and do so because I can afford to make those that work for my enjoyment have just a little bit better than average lifestyle or income.

My position on dealer tokes is that it is the preferred payment system to dealers to insure the professional standards, as opposed to a more-hourly-wage/no tokes allowed system. I believe that most players that earn a living from playing poker also prefer this method to prevent higher turnover, inexperienced staff, and mistake-filled games.

While the dealer was gracious in praising Jerry, who no doubt is a far better man than I am, I will say that I will think less of Mr. Ferguson, who I have been very impressed with on and off the felt since I have followed his career (even taking pictures in person of him and close female friend who really admires him). I enjoy the professionalism he bring to the game. However, I will refrain from taking the same hard stance against Mr. Yang because I agree that he may have been misinformed about how much he had already tipped.

Again, if Jerry was tipping 1.8 (1.3) percent of his prize to the dealers, then why wasn't everyone who busted out before cashing, having their $122 ($174) returned to them.

That being said, I was not a fan of Yang in watching him play. I just didn't enjoy his god fearing intervention upon calling for cards. And I'm not sure that his play will stand up over the long run if he decides to pursue a professional poker career.

I will compliment him on his relentless aggression that vaulted him from eighth to first in the opening 90 minutes. It was unbelievable that he was able to parlay his table image coming into the final table and that the players bought his raises and reraises before they knew what he was up to and they were afraid to try and stop him.

The QQ laydown will be interesting to see if that was the best hand, and then Hilm having just bottom pair with flush draw resigning to a likely gamble with the relentless Yang. Yang even said in the post-interview that he bluffed alot. I think the hole cards will show what everybody - even the final table players assumed after it was too late - that he was on the steal.

I would like to hear more from OliverT, believe it or not, regarding this issue.

Does Jerry know that he tipped the staff about $175 off his his 4.5 mil take home prize?

If Mr. Yang comes on to twoplustwo and says that he feels that the 1.3 (1.8) percent given by the players prior to the start of the tournament is acceptable to him, then I will have to take exception to his position. That will not change my opinion of his character, it will just make me categorize him as a far-below-average tipper.

I think most veteran poker players agree that 1-2 percent of an awarded prize is the standard (providing the service was worthy). If the winner wanted to subtract all the previous gratuity charges that he paid in other tournaments prior to cashing, that would be understood, as well.

Again, the players that didn't cash, did not receive their $122 ($174) back because they didn't cash.

And from this point, although I have enjoyed watching Mr. Ferguson play televised tournaments, I will probably consider him from this point forward to be a far-below-average tipper, and nothing else, judging from his comments to Mr. Yang. Surprising since, although still never proven and supposedly on the super-down-low, his true financial involvement with Full Tilt, which many have speculated on this board to be substantial to the point of extreme financial success.

[frommagio]

I'm still not understanding your point about Chris Ferguson's inaccurate statements, or half-truths. From what I can tell, the math presented in a number of posts throughout this thread seems to indicate that CF's estimate was on the mark.

Now there are a lot of unknowns in how the distribution actually works (the Harrah's process), but the gross math seems to suggest that the players collectively did their part, even without additional tipping.

The restaurant analogy - 18% automatically withheld, tip additionally if you care to - seems to be quite apropos. For a poker tournament, that might translate to finding individuals who delivered particularly good service. After reading this thread, that's what I would do if I found myself in this position.

So I guess I'm left with the conclusion that a number of others have reached: that the dealers' argument, if any, is with Harrah's. The players collectively seem to have done their part.

[Photoc]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm still not understanding your point about Chris Ferguson's inaccurate statements, or half-truths. From what I can tell, the math presented in a number of posts throughout this thread seems to indicate that CF's estimate was on the mark.

[/ QUOTE ]

Read the posts in the earlier part of this thread. CF said the dealers were getting 2.0% of JY's win. Not even close. The dealers are in fact getting 2/3 (65%) of the 1.8% withheld for the staff or 1.2% (2/3 of 1.8). That is a 75% difference from 1.2% to the 2.0% which CF was quoted as saying. That is quite a difference.

[fnurt]

This is some awful logic.

The point is, if no tip had been taken out for the dealers, that money would have been in the prize pool. First prize would have been $150,000 more than it was.

You can play all the word games you want, but to claim that the winner only tipped $100 or so is an insult to everyone's intelligence.

[Punker]

[ QUOTE ]
having been hired as Jerry's agent for the WSOP Main Event on Monday afternoon... Oliver Tse

[/ QUOTE ]

If he thought he needed God's help before....

[Ramon Scott]

How much of Mr. Yang's $9,400 entry was taken out for tips exactly? Certainly, it was 1.8 percent (with 1.3 going to the dealers.) The dealer/floor toke was paid before the tournament started. Everyone ponied up exactly the same amount.

[suzy89222]

[ QUOTE ]
This is some awful logic.

The point is, if no tip had been taken out for the dealers, that money would have been in the prize pool. First prize would have been $150,000 more than it was.

You can play all the word games you want, but to claim that the winner only tipped $100 or so is an insult to everyone's intelligence.

[/ QUOTE ]

horrible logic indeed. there are so many problems with that post, i dont know where to begin.

[frommagio]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm still not understanding your point about Chris Ferguson's inaccurate statements, or half-truths. From what I can tell, the math presented in a number of posts throughout this thread seems to indicate that CF's estimate was on the mark.

[/ QUOTE ]

Read the posts in the earlier part of this thread. CF said the dealers were getting 2.0% of JY's win. Not even close. The dealers are in fact getting 2/3 (65%) of the 1.8% withheld for the staff or 1.2% (2/3 of 1.8). That is a 75% difference from 1.2% to the 2.0% which CF was quoted as saying. That is quite a difference.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, those remarks miss the point, and that has been repeatedly explained. It's not the tipper's concern how the establishment and its employees agreed to distribute the pool among themselves. From what was stated, Harrah's won't even provide that information to the players; how should the player know?

CF's point was that 2% (actually, 1.8%) of a $62 mil prize fund had already been turned over for tips, and he cited the amount that had already come from the winner's share.

That was pretty good info that Jerry needed to know - delivered by a knowledgeable person at just the right time. It demonstrated that the tipped personnel had been well taken care of by the players. This allowed Jerry to realize that any additional gratuity would be entirely optional.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
pkrp: If we as players have no idea whether you are underpaid or overpaid, how can we make an informed decision as to whether or not to tip beyond what is withheld? Some people have estimated about 10,000 dealer hours. I just did a quick guesstimate at 6000hrs for Day 1, 2000 hours for Day 2, 700 hours for Day 3, and less than that each of the other days. If it's 10,000 hours total and the tip pool for dealers was $700,000, that's $70/hr in tips. If a dealer gets 6 hours of work for 5 days during that period, that's $2100 in tips alone, plus $200-300 from Harrah's (depending on who you believe). A dealer who deals 6-hours each of the 11 days would make over $5000 for the ME. Plus pay and tips for any cash games they deal. Players simply want to understand the real numbers in play here before making tipping decisions.

N: Doesn't matter. The only relevant number to tournament players is how much money it takes to get good dealers to come out and deal the tournaments. I'd assume that dealers would take into account all relevant expenses involved before stating a figure that makes it attractive to them.

[/ QUOTE ]

i completely understand where you are coming from so please try and understand the position i am in too. i will tell you tho that the hours worked is not the meat of the equation. the 6.41/hour is handled by harrahs. dealers are getting paid for total tournament (ME and extra tourneys) tables worked from 7/6 to 7/17. The total withholding from all events 7/6 to 7/17 for the dealers, all tournament side tokes that are specified for dealers all go into one bucket. The toke commitee will then add up the total tourney downs and come up with the ammount per down, lets just say it will be $30 per down. my roomate was sent home on day 5 with a total of 38 downs (They claimed she had a high ammount so she was done). so her pay will be 38 downs x $30 = $1140 plus her hourly which is 56 x $6.41=$358.90 for a gross total $1498.90. then uncle sam takes his part. if a dealer was lucky to get into the cash game rotation when they were told they had too many downs, then that cash goes straight into their pocket.
I hope you understand how it is done now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Assuming the $30/down is reasonable, and it certainly could be, that's a massive amount of money.

Also, stop whining about taxes.

[Photoc]

[ QUOTE ]


CF's point was that 2% (actually, 1.8%) of a $62 mil prize fund had already been turned over for tips, and he cited the amount that had already come from the winner's share.

That was pretty good info that Jerry needed to know - delivered by a knowledgeable person at just the right time. It demonstrated that the tipped personnel had been well taken care of by the players. This allowed Jerry to realize that any additional gratuity would be entirely optional.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually it was listed on the website and various paperwork exactly how the withholding % was distributed. It said exactly 1.8% will be witheld for tournament staff. And obviuosly the 1.2% figure or 65/70% has gotten out quite easily (other than this thread), I don't see how Harrahs refused to share information. All these numbers were readily available online and in writing at the Rio.