Israel's Attack on Lebanon and Hezbollah

[jman220]

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But, IMO, this was not the prominent factor behind the victory of Hamas. If anything, this kind of corruption has always been there, to a varying degree, yet the Palestinians kept voting in the secular moderates.

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The Palestinians kept voting for Fatah, even with the corruption and poor social planning, because Arafat was still alive.

And as much as you can say "IMO, thats not the main reason," your opinion is contradicted by the Palestinians themselves, who, upon being interviewed, overwhelmingly stated that that was in fact the main reason.

[jman220]

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It's uncanny how Israel's sycophantic supporters immediately start smearing the opposite camp with loaded labels! Do you really think that all those who oppose Israeli brutality and aggression are leftists?


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Of course not, but I'm familiar with your leftist ravings on this board, and my label was correct. Generally the people in America who are against Israel are either ultra-leftist idiots, or ultra-right wing antisemites (of course they tend to hate the arabs too..)

[Cyrus]

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You need to work on the screws of people like Ariel Sharon and Bibi Netanyahu first. Then check out your buses by all means.

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Bibi Netanyahu was the opposition leader in Israel in 1995-1996.

[/ QUOTE ]Yeah, Bibi has always been more moderate than Sharon, you're right. He is opposing Sharon from the point of more tolerance for Palestinians, and not less. And when he was in power, Israel was all peace, love and understanding.

I'm feeding my sarcasm on your obstinacy, see.

[Cyrus]

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Do you really think that all those who oppose Israeli brutality and aggression are leftists?


[/ QUOTE ] I'm familiar with your leftist ravings on this board, and my label was correct.

[/ QUOTE ] Really? Such as?

Take your time...

(OK, here's a cue to help y'along: Iraq. Think of the exclusively "crazy leftist loonies" who object to the war in Iraq. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img])

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Generally the people in America who are against Israel are either ultra-leftist idiots, or ultra-right wing antisemites.

[/ QUOTE ]I hope you're wrong but you seem to know so much about extremists, I will defer to your knowledge and objectivity.

[img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[Cyrus]

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The Palestinians kept voting for Fatah, even with the corruption and poor social planning, because Arafat was still alive.

[/ QUOTE ] Personality cult stronger than freedom of will? Unless you are suggesting that the Palestinians were not voting their mind, there is something wrong with your argument.

Arafat was indeed a De Gaulle-like figure for the Palestinians, symbolizing national rebirth, but even De Gaulle gets the boot in the ballot box.

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Your opinion is contradicted by the Palestinians themselves, who, upon being interviewed, overwhelmingly stated that that was in fact the main reason.

[/ QUOTE ]Yep, the Palestinians are definitely more concerned about the trash getting picked on time or officials getting kickbacks, rather than other daily facts of life such as getting humiliated at the roadblocks, tortured at the hands of the IDF, their neighborhood torn down or a bullet in the head.

Yep, you are right, my man. I think you've nailed it.

And especially since, as you conservatively [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] put it, we have "tons of news agencies" saying the same thing...

[nicky g]

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Loving the pro-Israeli (or at least anti-Arab) bias in the media. Some things never change.

(disclaimer: I'm Lebanese-American and my parents still live in Beirut)

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1. How would you report the events differently?

2. How should Israel have responded to the cross border raid which resulted in the death of 6 soldiers and kidnapping of two more? (imagine u were Israeli PM)

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8 soldiers were killed. 3 in the patrol vehicle that was attacked, 4 in the tank and one soldier from the rescue mission, who was killed by a sniper.

2 more, as you said, are still in captivity.

The notion that Israel should negotiate a "prisoner trade" is insane. The Hizbollah, or Hamas (who still hold Gilad Shavit, a 19 year old israeli soldier in Gaza) cannot be rewarded for killing and kidnapping soldiers. If we release prisoners on their demand we will be rewarding terrorist for their actions. That is utterly unacceptable.

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Population Israel: 6,352,117
Population United States: 298,444,215 CIA Word Factbook

In U.S. terms 8 dead Israeli soldiers equals 376 U.S. soldiers. Think about what the U.S. would do if a terrorist organization crossed our borders and killed 376 soldiers.

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This kind of argument is absurd. If I declare a state of two people, and one of them gets killed, do I get to respond the same way China would if 500 million people got killed? People's lives don't become more or less important because they live in a smaller country.

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You are correct in a fashion. My point was to illustrate the killings' impact on a country with a relatively small population, something that people who live in much larger countries might not appreciate. IOW, it would hurt Americans to lose 8 soldiers but it would shock them to lose 376 and their reactions would probably be different.

I have a feeling you knew what I meant by my post.

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I know what you mean and I don;t agree with it. I don;t think Israel losing 8 soldiers has anything like the same effect on it that losing 400 would on the United States or is in anyway comparable, any more than it makes sense to go the other way and say "Of course, that's only one quarter of a Lichtentein soldier."

[theblitz]

Since the Hizbullah sets up its bases within civilian areas it is impossible to avoid civilian casualties.
So, Israel should not attack them?

This is what the Geneva Convention has to say about using civilians as shields:

(Part III Article 28)

"The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations."

http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/instree/y4gcpcp.htm

[Cyrus]

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Population Israel: 6,352,117
Population United States: 298,444,215
In U.S. terms 8 dead Israeli soldiers equals 376 U.S. soldiers. Think about what the U.S. would do if a terrorist organization crossed our borders and killed 376 soldiers.

[/ QUOTE ]For the umpteenth time : This is NOT like tournament poker !

The value of every chip differs according to stack size in tournament poker --- but one human life equals one human life irrespective of stack size, i.e. size of population of the tribe the human life belongs to.

If 10 Israelis are killed as opposed to 1000 Arabs, we are not supposed to mourn the Jews any less (because they are Jews) or the Arabs any less (because the Arab populatiob is more numerous). This might be important information for a general directing his troops to war but it's got nothing to do with the moral objections raised here (and the objections are about morality, rather than anything else). Those objections focus on Israel's extremely disproportionate response to Hezbollah terrorism and on Israel's consequent escalation of the violence in the Middle East.

The whole argument abt the "relative worth" of human value is a very corny strawman.

[nicky g]

As I've posteed elsewhere, HB has been telling civilians to evacuate areas it is strong in. Of course when they do, Israel blows up the cars they're travelling in. And of course we all know that for Israel, fleeing a war zone is tantamount to handing over the keys to your house forever.

It is strange how with all these HB fighters hidden in amongst civilians, Israel has managed to kill 130 civilians but only 13 HB fighters. Better keep killing them civilians I guess, just in case.

[theblitz]

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It is strange how with all these HB fighters hidden in amongst civilians, Israel has managed to kill 130 civilians but only 13 HB fighters.

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Maybe because they use 10 civilians to protect each one of their fighters?

The fact is that at the end of the day the Israelis are always responsible. "It's your fault that we are shooting rockets into your towns and cities and you have no right to fight back. Who do you think you are?"