Nation's Modship

[Leader]

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if he gets demodded, can I be the next full ring mod?

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I'd like to state my support for any MT2R for mod campaign, regardless of any demodding.

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[nation]

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if he gets demodded, can I be the next full ring mod?

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I'd like to state my support for any MT2R for mod campaign, regardless of any demodding.

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[nation]

srsly, we could use him in full ring, mostly to help build the community there. obviously there's very little help we need as far as keeping the forum clean between the two of us already there, but mt2r could help with setting up HU matches and different events for the forum.

[Cry Me A River]

FWIW, as a FRNL regular, I don't think any of this warrants Nation being de-moded either. And I've been pretty anti-Chuck and anti-FTP in the original thread.

However, I have a question about this:

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I said that I had friends who wanted to play with Chucks team but had no funds to do so. I made plans to stake them on my own team, but after finding out through FTP's t&c that it is illegal to run a business using their software, I shut down all plans. I didn't want to be part of a gray area.

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Do you mean that you think Chuck's operation is prohibited by FTP's T&C?

If not, why would it be if you were running a similar operation? Because you'd be staking the players? Surely that doesn't mean you think staking players is against T&C?

Soo... What? You were planning on hiring your friends and paying them $X and hour? Why wouldn't you just stake them under a normal staking arrangement? I don't see how that would be any "worse" than what Chuck claims he's doing.

You do seem to be admitting that this is a huge grey area, one that you yourself avoided. Can you really be surprised then this has spawled into a huge controversy?

[nation]

No, what chuck is doing is legal. He's chopping action with friends who are all putting in same investment.

I was saying that paying people/hour is the same as running a business, which is against their t&c. I would have done that because my friends are busto. I didn't want any part of that after reading the rules of the site. My friends wanted the hourly because it was steady money in an environment they'd enjoy, playing poker.

[Cry Me A River]

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He's chopping action with friends who are all putting in same investment.

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Wow, characterising this as "not a business" seems to be splitting a very fine hair.

Where did all the equipment come from? Was it purchased jointly? Did Chuck buy it and get reinbursed by the group's profits? Do they "lease" it from him and pay him for using it? Or did Chuck just plow a couple thousand dollars into monitors and systems so his buddy's could play with him with no other recompence?

[Our House]

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No, what chuck is doing is legal. He's chopping action with friends who are all putting in same investment.

I was saying that paying people/hour is the same as running a business, which is against their t&c. I would have done that because my friends are busto. I didn't want any part of that after reading the rules of the site. My friends wanted the hourly because it was steady money in an environment they'd enjoy, playing poker.

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Nation, what's the difference? If you stake someone, they get x% of the earn. If the total expected earn from staking that player is $50/hr, they get x% of $50/hr for $y/hr. It's the same thing. Does it really depend on how you phrase it?

What you're saying is:

- Staking someone based on hourly winrate is a business and is not allowed.

- Staking someone based on bb/100 winrate is not a business and is allowed.

Unless, you believe that ANY type of staking is against Full Tilt's T&Cs. That would be another (highly controversial) story.


EDIT: Sorry...I didn't really explain that too well, but the general idea should be obvious.

[Bobo Fett]

Unless I am mistaken, I believe he was talking about paying them an hourly WAGE, not staking them...a totally different arrangement. I have no idea how that impacts the T & C's, though.

[RedJoker]

All of this talk about botting got me very nervous so I decided to do some snooping around. I collected data on a lot of people and I think I have found incontrovertible evidence that Mike Haven is actually a bot, of course I can’t give out details as that would reveal my strategy for discovering bots. I obv e-mailed 2+2 support about the situation. Today I finally got an e-mail back:

On 12/5/07, 2+2 Support <support@twoplustwo.com> wrote:

Hello RedJoker,

Thank you for your email.

We’re sorry for the delay with the investigation; we felt it was very important to thoroughly review the investigation notes and findings. We take bots very seriously, and for obvious reasons cannot go into the details of our policies, procedures and detection methods. If 2+2 Security confirms the use of a bot by any poster, all accounts involved would be permanently closed.

We have completed our investigation of poster ‘Mike Haven’. After doing our due diligence in this case, we came to the following determinations:

• During the investigation we found the evidence to be inconclusive in supporting either determination (human or bot).

• After careful consideration, the evidence did not warrant the deleting of posts and permanent account closure.

• We stand by our decision. Having said that, this does not mean we have made an irreversible decision. We will continue to reevaluate this situation.

It is our responsibility to ensure a level posting field for all of our posters. It is clear that some situations are not as clear cut as they first appear and require additional refinement of established policies and procedures. We are working on additional measures to detect any activity that compromises the integrity and fairness of our boards; this is of paramount importance and will never be taken lightly.

Your patience during this investigation was greatly appreciated.

Regards,

Pooptoad
Security Supervisor
2+2 Support

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Please remember that no one will ever ask you for your
password or account information, not even support. Please
use good common sense and keep your password a secret.

Whine, Complain, and B*tch with the Pros.
100% Initial Post Bonus - www.forumserver.twoplustwo.com

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Obviously I’m not satisfied with their investigation. So I ask you, please explain to me how any of this could be legitimate. I can’t come up with a scenario that accounts for half the circumstances, much less all of them. If you can’t either, please email support@twoplustwo.com with a link to this thread and ask them why they’re allowing bots to post on their site.

After a deluge of emails, we can only hope they’ll post a substantive response on the situation or actually remove the bots.

[Mike Haven]

Nice_hand.