ZeeJustin the next to get caught multi accounting Party MTTs

[curtains]

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I find it *more* telling that ZJ did go to curtains as something of an ethical guide.

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Since you brought me up, I feel compelled to ask a couple questions about your quote above.

Is that what really happened? ZJ felt pangs of conscience and asked for ethical advice?

Or were they just having a strategy discussion of the most +EV ways to win regardless of ethics?


I am not implying that curtains' statements that he told ZJ such practices were wrong is not true, but I am questioning the context in which they occurred, not with just ZJ and curtains, but with other cheaters discussing their cheating with other posters here who continue to protect their identities and allow them to continue to steal from all of you.

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ZJ did not come to me as an ethical guide. Honestly I suspect ZJ knew very little of my ethics when we spoke, although probably assumed I was reasonably straight up. I can only imagine how many more people he had talked to about this whom either said it was fine to multiaccount tournaments or whom just decided to say nothing and totally ignore it, because I find it extremely doubtful that I was the first person this was mentioned to.

[curtains]

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It would be niave to think that with this ability, Zee didn't multi-account playing STTs. You think he ACTUALLY set rules about his cheating? Maybe at first, but that's a slippery slope that is pretty muddy, and I'm sure he fell downit pretty quick. I thought that Zee was playing many tables and teasing out a small edge and THAT is what made him a winning player. As it turns out he cheated to tease out a small edge. There is a big difference there. I don't think Zee pulls 30-150k if he doesn't cheat. That being said, what is he really risking? Make nothing and play straight, or cheat and pull fat cash..

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Yes, I do think he set rules. Look at his response. It is full of outrage at what has been done to him. Guilty men do not respond in this way. He believes (believed, Justin?) that what he did was a slight bending of the rules. Double sitting at a SNG or dumping in a big tourney is a Major violation. Additionally, what I have gleaned of his personality through his posts here on 2+2 and his website, the form of cheating he describes is all he is capable of doing. Cheating to a higher degree is not in his character, in my opinion.

I was simply giving a wide range as to his estimated earnings based on what I know limit players make. I have no idea how much SNG players make, but the top limit players earn in this range. You can "easily" make that kind of money without cheating in poker.

ZeeJustin is a fast-paced player. He loads up 12 tables (again, an estimate) and every time a table ends, he loads up another. When there is a new decision to be made, the table pops up, he looks at the action to him, his stack, their stack, the pot, the cards, and he acts within 2 seconds. He may not even remember the action on the previous streets. This is what he does. How do I know? Because that is what I do when I play that many tables. The idea of being able to "know what the other horse had" is silly. True, maybe he plays differently on Sunday. Maybe he only loads 6 tables and so can keep track of these things. But I don't think so. I don't think Justin is going to sacrifice his SNG earn to concentrate on the early portion of an MTT. Why? Cause I don't. When I play an MTT, I have 9 limit tables going and 1 MTT. I wouldn't be able to stand it any other way. I have to have constant decisions popping up when I play poker. I think Justin is the same way.

There are some good arguments brought up in this thread:

1) He cheated a little bit, that means he can cheat a lot.

People who think it is all right to shoplift ("walmart can afford it" "they're stealing from the community anyway" "it is just a candy bar") know that it is WRONG to steal from another person. Of course most people also know that it is WRONG to shoplift. That doesn't mean that shoplifters have no moral compass, no ethics.

2) HE HAD 6 HORSES!!!!

He plays 12 tables at a time. When you apply that logic to MTTs, it is surprising that he doesn't have more.

3) He is an arrogant little punk and greed is his master.

No. He is a human being subject to the same desires as you and I. He is also very driven. "I need to win. I can do better. I'm not making enough. I'm not good enough. I can do more. I can win." He doesn't need to cheat to satisfy these urges (which is why I'm surprised that he did). In fact, cheating doesn't satisfy half of these urges - to be the best, to succeed. He did cheat. But he didn't see it as cheating or else he couldn't do it.

4) He acknowledges that it is wrong to Grandma. He knew what he did was wrong, but made an EV decision that said, "this much EV gain is worth this much cheating."

Again, I'm surprised that though he thought this, he did it anyway. He was able to rationalize - "I'm not using these Grandmas to actively cheat. It is only the passive cheat of having multiple entries in a single tourney. People know my SNG game because I am internet-famous. It is only fair that I have anonimty when I play SNGs."

Justin cheated. However, he is not a corrupt human being. He is a cheater only becuase he did that which is cheating. He is not a born cheater who always looks for ways to cheat the system. If I sat next to him in a live casino, I wouldn't even worry about protecting my cards from his vision. He is a very good internet poker player, one of the best. He doesn't need to cheat to earn tens of thousands a month. In his mind, he never did cheat.

Of course, I could be wrong, I don't know him very well.

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For the most part I think I agree with you. Although I don't believe the statement of "in his mind he never did cheat". I think he knows now that it was cheating or at the least quite unethical.

[EliotSpitzer]

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Anyway now it's very clear that Party and Stars agree that this is flat out cheating, and anyone who does so is undeniably a cheater. Sorry if I sound like I'm defending the action. I really do feel it was and is cheating, it's just that I feel that there are much more serious types of cheating that go on all the time, that actually have a serious affect on someones EV. This form of cheating in a very large field of players has a very minor effect at most.

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What you say about the minimal EV affect may be true, but ZJ has done a shitton of things to make this situation as bad as it can possibly be:

1) He has touted himself as some great MTTer on his website (with no mention of six horses/grandmas of course)
2) He is an arrogant arse
3) He supposedly told GrannieMae that he only entered multiple horses in an MTT once
4) Just a couple of weeks ago he stated in a thread on high-stakes NL that a site's T&C should be the final word on what is condidered ethical and legitimate
5) When he is found to have broken Party's T&C he issues a "statement" wherein he blames Party's interface for not keeping him from cheating
6) In his "statement" he doesn't say anything about multi-accounting at Stars
7) Now we are left to wonder how he was able to multi-account at Stars -- was it a bug that was easy to exploit like the Party bug or did he have to take more elaborate measures?

ZJ has told multiple lies and continues to lie and I would have a hard time ever believing anything he says from this point forward. He almost appears to be pathological in his lying.

Oh, and this made me LOL for some reason:
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I basically commented tat no one will ever know since it would take years and years of playing them constantly before you have even a semblence of an accurate sample size, and by that time your skill level may have changed drasticaly and etc etc....at that point he mentioned that if people are using multiple accounts you can get reasonable figures much faster and etc etc.


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[bearly]

but an interesting question is suggested: what about all those "accounts" that were opened (at party) in order to get some rakeback after empire was cut loose by party? this could get very dicey....don't you think?..........b

[JCCARL]

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Hi folks -

We did our own review of ZeeJustin and unfortunately, found that he'd been playing multiple accounts in several tournaments at PokerStars.

* We confiscated the money that he won illicitly.

* We closed his accounts and banned him from PokerStars.

* We are returning the money he won illicitly to players who were harmed by his actions in those same tournaments.

Obviously, we don't like doing this, but the evidence was incontrovertible. We will do whatever it takes to keep our games and tournaments clean.

Best regards,
Lee Jones

PokerStars Poker Room Manager

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Kudos to you Lee and the team at Pokerstars.
I think many people knew that this was not only happening at Party Poker.
Carl

[UATrewqaz]

Behold my master piece and only contribution to this thread

I call it, "A Friendly Game of Poker"


Jurollo: Too far.

[Reef]

UA,

nice work

[jman220]

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but an interesting question is suggested: what about all those "accounts" that were opened (at party) in order to get some rakeback after empire was cut loose by party? this could get very dicey....don't you think?..........b

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Those people who emailed party to close their old accounts, and Party let them do this, and then emailed party to create a new account, and Party let them do this as well, have nothing to worry about. People who opened new accoutns under false names, may have something to worry about.

[jman220]

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Behold my master piece and only contribution to this thread

I call it, "A Friendly Game of Poker"



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I find it unrealistic that Hitler folded.

[BlackRain]

These recent revelations of high profile players cheating, and the idea that it extends well beyond just a few "bad apples," is very disturbing to me, as a player who has never cheated or even considered it. I believe I speak for many when I say this.

I urge all pokersites to immediately and publicly get to the bottom of this issue. This is especially directed at Lee, as he may see this, and as Pokerstars is my primary site. I love your site and have virtually only played there for years now because of your dedication to excellence in all areas. However, I feel you have dropped the ball a bit on this issue. More needs to be done and it needs to be done right now.