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| View Poll Results: Will Philly turn it around and grab a wildcard? | |||
| Yes |
   
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22 | 41.51% |
| Probably Not |
  
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14 | 26.42% |
| No |
  
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9 | 16.98% |
| They will blow it on the last play of the season in true Philly style |
  
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8 | 15.09% |
| Voters: 53. You may not vote on this poll | |||
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#201
10-25-2007, 02:33 PM
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Re: Universal Healthcare? Can it work? I\'m doubtful...
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Did the opposition go to sleep, or are they just fed up with this discussion? I am very interested in this topic. Being a conservative I like hearing what "progressives" have to say to these arguments. [/ QUOTE ] I am undecided on the issue, but so far the thread is a standard health care debate which consists mostly of lies and fearmongering from universal health care opponents. This is why these threads tend to muddle the issue more than shed any light. 
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#202
10-25-2007, 02:41 PM
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Re: Universal Healthcare? Can it work? I\'m doubtful...
I have been asking this question to my family and friends when talking about free markets vs government.
You have to have a new product/service that you is not available right now. There are time constraints on when you must have it. You have plenty of money to pay for it, but want to get this product for as cheap as possible. Who do you trust to come up with the more efficient solution? The federal government or the free market.
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#203
10-25-2007, 02:50 PM
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Re: Universal Healthcare? Can it work? I\'m doubtful...
[ QUOTE ]
I have been asking this question to my family and friends when talking about free markets vs government. You have to have a new product/service that you is not available right now. There are time constraints on when you must have it. You have plenty of money to pay for it, but want to get this product for as cheap as possible. Who do you trust to come up with the more efficient solution? The federal government or the free market. [/ QUOTE ] Right now we have neither when it comes to health care. I believe a move in either direction would be a huge improvement. All those right-leaning posters who scream socialism when it comes to health care are hypocrites in my opinion unless they scream as loudly about defense spending. It's ridiculous that they can live with spending $750 billion on defense this year in the name of security against mainly phantom enemies (or those we create through our own actions), and yet they think the govt should spend $0 on defense against disease, injury, and other medical issues which certainly affect our security (in terms of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness) far more. Absolute hypocrisy. If you want to rail against the costs of health care, I expect you to rail against the costs of our foreign policy, or you really have no complaints about socialism and its costs in principle, only which particular items you want to socialize with govt coercion, huge taxes, and a massive bureaucracy.
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#204
10-25-2007, 03:02 PM
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Re: Universal Healthcare? Can it work? I\'m doubtful...
[ QUOTE ]
I am undecided on the issue, but so far the thread is a standard health care debate which consists mostly of lies and fearmongering from universal health care opponents. [/ QUOTE ] If you're gonna say lies are present from universal health care opponents in this thread, the least you could do is point them out. Or are you a student at the One Outer School of Argument by Assertion, Name-Calling and Righteous Indignation?
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#205
10-25-2007, 03:06 PM
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Re: Universal Healthcare? Can it work? I\'m doubtful...
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I am undecided on the issue, but so far the thread is a standard health care debate which consists mostly of lies and fearmongering from universal health care opponents. [/ QUOTE ] If you're gonna say lies are present from universal health care opponents in this thread, the least you could do is point them out. Or are you a student at the One Outer School of Argument by Assertion, Name-Calling and Righteous Indignation? [/ QUOTE ] Here's one: "Cheaper to who? Certainly not cheaper to the taxpayers who have to provide the "free" health care." This is is response to the point that the total amount spent by US taxpayers on health care is the highest in the world, even including what foreign govts pay. So, yes in fact, foreigners pay less on health care, taxes included. And of course, nobody here corrected this poster but rather let this obvious falsehood sit there as fact. Which helps prove my point.
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#206
10-25-2007, 03:07 PM
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Re: Universal Healthcare? Can it work? I\'m doubtful...
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I have been asking this question to my family and friends when talking about free markets vs government. You have to have a new product/service that you is not available right now. There are time constraints on when you must have it. You have plenty of money to pay for it, but want to get this product for as cheap as possible. Who do you trust to come up with the more efficient solution? The federal government or the free market. [/ QUOTE ] Right now we have neither when it comes to health care. I believe a move in either direction would be a huge improvement. All those right-leaning posters who scream socialism when it comes to health care are hypocrites in my opinion unless they scream as loudly about defense spending. It's ridiculous that they can live with spending $750 billion on defense this year in the name of security against mainly phantom enemies (or those we create through our own actions), and yet they think the govt should spend $0 on defense against disease, injury, and other medical issues which certainly affect our security (in terms of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness) far more. Absolute hypocrisy. If you want to rail against the costs of health care, I expect you to rail against the costs of our foreign policy, or you really have no complaints about socialism and its costs in principle, only which particular items you want to socialize with govt coercion, huge taxes, and a massive bureaucracy. [/ QUOTE ] I dont know this for sure, but I feel safe saying that the majority of posters here feel the same way about most govt programs as they do with health care. And that is stay the hell out of it. I personally have no problem with a small portion of my income going to support National Defense. It seems like that is something that is better provided by a single source, but I guess I could be convinced otherwise. Not that I am saying I agree with our foreign policy now. I would support leaving Iraq and the other 159 countries we have troops in and returning to a DEFENSIVE military position.
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#207
10-25-2007, 03:25 PM
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Re: Universal Healthcare? Can it work? I\'m doubtful...
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I am undecided on the issue, but so far the thread is a standard health care debate which consists mostly of lies and fearmongering from universal health care opponents. [/ QUOTE ] If you're gonna say lies are present from universal health care opponents in this thread, the least you could do is point them out. Or are you a student at the One Outer School of Argument by Assertion, Name-Calling and Righteous Indignation? [/ QUOTE ] Here's one: "Cheaper to who? Certainly not cheaper to the taxpayers who have to provide the "free" health care." This is is response to the point that the total amount spent by US taxpayers on health care is the highest in the world, even including what foreign govts pay. So, yes in fact, foreigners pay less on health care, taxes included. And of course, nobody here corrected this poster but rather let this obvious falsehood sit there as fact. Which helps prove my point. [/ QUOTE ] "Total amount spent" is misleading. Just because our gross expenditures on medical care are higher, that doesn't mean the individual procedures are cheaper. I think it was Borodog who addressed this. Basicly we are fatter and richer than most other countries. Since we are fatter we are going to have to spend more $$ on medical care. Also, since health care is largely a luxury good and we have more money left over after we pay for the necessities that means we have more money to pay for more medical care. I think this was the gist of it. If you have some figures comparing specific procedures between the countries I would be interested in seeing them to see wethere our "health care" is actually more expensive or not. However, untill someone from your side comes forward with evidence to the contrary I'm going to believe that Borodog's argument stands.
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#208
10-25-2007, 03:29 PM
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Re: Universal Healthcare? Can it work? I\'m doubtful...
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Cheaper to who? Certainly not cheaper to the taxpayers who have to provide the "free" health care. [/ QUOTE ] Ummm, yes in fact it is cheaper for them as their govt pays less per citizen on health care than even our govt. [/ QUOTE ] You're assuming you get the same thing. Health care isn't a fixed quantity. I can spend less per citizen on "food" by eating bread instead of steak, even if I pay twice the going rate for bread.
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#209
10-25-2007, 03:43 PM
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Re: Universal Healthcare? Can it work? I\'m doubtful...
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I am undecided on the issue, but so far the thread is a standard health care debate which consists mostly of lies and fearmongering from universal health care opponents. [/ QUOTE ] If you're gonna say lies are present from universal health care opponents in this thread, the least you could do is point them out. Or are you a student at the One Outer School of Argument by Assertion, Name-Calling and Righteous Indignation? [/ QUOTE ] Here's one: "Cheaper to who? Certainly not cheaper to the taxpayers who have to provide the "free" health care." This is is response to the point that the total amount spent by US taxpayers on health care is the highest in the world, even including what foreign govts pay. So, yes in fact, foreigners pay less on health care, taxes included. And of course, nobody here corrected this poster but rather let this obvious falsehood sit there as fact. Which helps prove my point. [/ QUOTE ] "Total amount spent" is misleading. Just because our gross expenditures on medical care are higher, that doesn't mean the individual procedures are cheaper. I think it was Borodog who addressed this. Basicly we are fatter and richer than most other countries. Since we are fatter we are going to have to spend more $$ on medical care. Also, since health care is largely a luxury good and we have more money left over after we pay for the necessities that means we have more money to pay for more medical care. I think this was the gist of it. If you have some figures comparing specific procedures between the countries I would be interested in seeing them to see wethere our "health care" is actually more expensive or not. However, untill someone from your side comes forward with evidence to the contrary I'm going to believe that Borodog's argument stands. [/ QUOTE ] Fine. I encourage such debate. But people who just assert "it's not cheaper for their taxpayers" in response to data showing it is cheaper for their taxpayers, with no further rationale or counter data do not add anything to these types of debates. Thanks for your input.
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#210
10-25-2007, 03:44 PM
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Re: Universal Healthcare? Can it work? I\'m doubtful...
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Cheaper to who? Certainly not cheaper to the taxpayers who have to provide the "free" health care. [/ QUOTE ] Ummm, yes in fact it is cheaper for them as their govt pays less per citizen on health care than even our govt. [/ QUOTE ] You're assuming you get the same thing. Health care isn't a fixed quantity. I can spend less per citizen on "food" by eating bread instead of steak, even if I pay twice the going rate for bread. [/ QUOTE ] See above.
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