Just Saw Sicko, Now Have Question

[jackdaniels]

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Guids,

Saying something should be considered a right is simply a value judgment. Arguments like "you can't prove that health care is a right so it isn't" totally miss the boat. Why should free speech be considered a right? Because we as a society have deemed that a culture in which people could speak freely without fear of retribution is more attractive than one in which that isn't true. People who believe health care should be considered a right are saying the same thing about an acceptable level of health care. It's not something that can be "proved" one way or the other.

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Are you an American? this may be where the confusion comes in (Im not being snide, Im serious). Freedom of speech is a right, because it is in teh constitution as a right. Free Healthcare is not a right granted by teh constitution, so I can prove it. If there was a vote, and the constitution was amended than things would be different and I would defer to teh will of the people, but as of right now, its not.

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Yes, I am an American. Nobody is arguing that the "right to healthcare" is in the Bill of Rights. But you are naive if you think that as an American you enjoy just the rights outlined in the Bill Of Rights. The courts and society have recognized numerous other rights not codified in the Constitution. For someone seemingly so sympathetic to libertarian ideals, you have a very statist conception of what rights are.

The question is not whether it should be a right codified in some document but whether we should consider it as such in making decisions.

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Ignoring for a second what is and is not codified, how can you make something a "right" when it entails the necessary enslavement of another? How can you say people have a "right" to healthcare when it necessarily means that you need to force someone else to pay for that "right" using the threat of force?

If you give me the "will off the people" spiel, I'll gladly remind you that the US is a republic and not a democracy, specifically so that the majority wouldn't be able to do exactly what you are suggesting - enslave/threaten/opress a minority in it's midst. In this case, you suggest we enslave the most productive citizens (a minority for sure) to the benefit of the unproductive majority.

[UATrewqaz]

Anyone who isn't a communist or socialist is a right winger now?

You cannot force people to care. Period. I don't give a damn about your health care or your health care needs or anyone elses.

I care about ME and my family. Period. I can afford health care because I have an education and a good job and am a productive member of society. I don't really give a crap about anything else. Does that make me "selfish" or "immoral"? Well that's up to you and your definition of the word immoral.

Oh you want to FORCE me to pay for other people's health care, because that's what you think is right?

Now you're attempting to legislate your morality on the rest of the country, something I'm sure you've accused "right wingers" of on many occasions.

[Lucky]

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Long term nursing care is not covered under your health insurance in the United States. If you require long term nursing care with no prospect of getting better, if you don't have the special long term care insurance, then eventually you do bankrupt your family. Most people under 40 don't have this insurance, and I've seen advisors suggest that you not bother to purchase it before age 50. Reason: There is some doubt that the companies will be able to meet their obligations going that far forward into the future. It can be terribly expensive in any case if you qualify to buy it at all. So I don't know what to tell you. I gave up on reading the rest of the thread when I realized that it had degenerated into a political debate, instead of practical advice. Possibly this is because there is no practical advice to be had. I've heard of older couples making such choices as suicide or divorce to prevent the healthy spouse from being left out on the street when the severely disabled spouse has no chance of recovery.

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That's what i was hoping for..well not exactly that but that type of analysis. I guess the real question here is how best to protect you assets/send them offshore, so that in case of serious illness you can be indigent without really being indigent.

[John Spartan]

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That's what i was hoping for..well not exactly that but that type of analysis. I guess the real question here is how best to protect you assets/send them offshore, so that in case of serious illness you can be indigent without really being indigent.

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Fraud, nice.

[John Spartan]

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Anyone who isn't a communist or socialist is a right winger now?

You cannot force people to care. Period. I don't give a damn about your health care or your health care needs or anyone elses.

I care about ME and my family. Period. I can afford health care because I have an education and a good job and am a productive member of society. I don't really give a crap about anything else. Does that make me "selfish" or "immoral"? Well that's up to you and your definition of the word immoral.

Oh you want to FORCE me to pay for other people's health care, because that's what you think is right?

Now you're attempting to legislate your morality on the rest of the country, something I'm sure you've accused "right wingers" of on many occasions.

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Listen, AC Trewgaz,

you obviously didn't read the posts where I made wher I posted polls showing 80% of Americans willing to raise taxes to make sure everyone has health insurance. This isn't me forcing my opinion on the rest of this country.

[UATrewqaz]

I'm not AC at all, I think there are plenty of valid reasons to pay taxes.

Doing so to pay for heart surgery for Mr. 390lb fat ass who has eaten nothing but 50 cheeseburgers every day for the past 20 years isn't one of them.

[Emperor]

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Anyone who isn't a communist or socialist is a right winger now?

You cannot force people to care. Period. I don't give a damn about your health care or your health care needs or anyone elses.

I care about ME and my family. Period. I can afford health care because I have an education and a good job and am a productive member of society. I don't really give a crap about anything else. Does that make me "selfish" or "immoral"? Well that's up to you and your definition of the word immoral.

Oh you want to FORCE me to pay for other people's health care, because that's what you think is right?

Now you're attempting to legislate your morality on the rest of the country, something I'm sure you've accused "right wingers" of on many occasions.

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Listen, AC Trewgaz,

you obviously didn't read the posts where I made wher I posted polls showing 80% of Americans willing to raise taxes to make sure everyone has health insurance. This isn't me forcing my opinion on the rest of this country.

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Just because 80% of Americans desire something, doesn't mean that it is a good idea. That is why we have a VERY short and strict constitution that is supposed to prevent mob rule.

I am sure if you asked American's if they would like a complimentary luxury car, that the majority of them would say yes.

I have even had people tell me that the government should give everyone a million dollars every year, because they can afford it....

People are stupid.

Also I ADMITTED that your citations were more accurate than mine, so take pleasure in that.

That still doesn't mean that the population shouldn't get educated, get a job, get insurance if they desire to.

It doesn't mean that people LIKE ME who don't get an education, a job, insurance, don't deserve to suffer the consequences of those actions. They do.

[owsley]

js,

what makes you think a universal healthcare system is anywhere close to feasible? as a country we cant afford to pay for it, especially because such a program will lack the economic incentives to be as efficient as possible which a free market system will have. and 80% of americans or whatever might support universal healthcare as an idea, but when it comes time to pay for it that will change.

[The4Aces]

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Anyone who isn't a communist or socialist is a right winger now?

You cannot force people to care. Period. I don't give a damn about your health care or your health care needs or anyone elses.

I care about ME and my family. Period. I can afford health care because I have an education and a good job and am a productive member of society. I don't really give a crap about anything else. Does that make me "selfish" or "immoral"? Well that's up to you and your definition of the word immoral.

Oh you want to FORCE me to pay for other people's health care, because that's what you think is right?

Now you're attempting to legislate your morality on the rest of the country, something I'm sure you've accused "right wingers" of on many occasions.

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Listen, AC Trewgaz,

you obviously didn't read the posts where I made wher I posted polls showing 80% of Americans willing to raise taxes to make sure everyone has health insurance. This isn't me forcing my opinion on the rest of this country.

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Just because 80% of Americans desire something, doesn't mean that it is a good idea. That is why we have a VERY short and strict constitution that is supposed to prevent mob rule.

I am sure if you asked American's if they would like a complimentary luxury car, that the majority of them would say yes.

I have even had people tell me that the government should give everyone a million dollars every year, because they can afford it....

People are stupid.

Also I ADMITTED that your citations were more accurate than mine, so take pleasure in that.

That still doesn't mean that the population shouldn't get educated, get a job, get insurance if they desire to.

It doesn't mean that people LIKE ME who don't get an education, a job, insurance, don't deserve to suffer the consequences of those actions. They do.

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Next human right... cars for everyone. and a million$ a year.

[Emperor]

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Anyone who isn't a communist or socialist is a right winger now?

You cannot force people to care. Period. I don't give a damn about your health care or your health care needs or anyone elses.

I care about ME and my family. Period. I can afford health care because I have an education and a good job and am a productive member of society. I don't really give a crap about anything else. Does that make me "selfish" or "immoral"? Well that's up to you and your definition of the word immoral.

Oh you want to FORCE me to pay for other people's health care, because that's what you think is right?

Now you're attempting to legislate your morality on the rest of the country, something I'm sure you've accused "right wingers" of on many occasions.

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Listen, AC Trewgaz,

you obviously didn't read the posts where I made wher I posted polls showing 80% of Americans willing to raise taxes to make sure everyone has health insurance. This isn't me forcing my opinion on the rest of this country.

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Just because 80% of Americans desire something, doesn't mean that it is a good idea. That is why we have a VERY short and strict constitution that is supposed to prevent mob rule.

I am sure if you asked American's if they would like a complimentary luxury car, that the majority of them would say yes.

I have even had people tell me that the government should give everyone a million dollars every year, because they can afford it....

People are stupid.

Also I ADMITTED that your citations were more accurate than mine, so take pleasure in that.

That still doesn't mean that the population shouldn't get educated, get a job, get insurance if they desire to.

It doesn't mean that people LIKE ME who don't get an education, a job, insurance, don't deserve to suffer the consequences of those actions. They do.

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Next human right... cars for everyone. and a million$ a year.

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That isn't so far fetched, they passed a law in Michigan that the state must provide telephone service for anyone who can't afford it. Not being able to call for emergency services violated their Human rights was the argument.