*Official* Israel/Lebanon thread (politics)

[iron81]

lozen,

Not so much

1. The ceasefire is largely holding
2. Israel is pulling out of their captured territory in Lebanon
3. The Lebanese Army is taking up positions in Southern Lebanon
4. Refugees are returning home

Source

I'm gonna bookmark this post for the next time anyone says the UN is useless. The UN is responsible for this ceasefire and I say good for them.

[ACPlayer]

I like this guys summary - the emphasis is mine:
[ QUOTE ]
It's a very confusing predicament. The way it has been done leaves a strong sense that it was a mistake to go to war.

Firstly, the declaration that the war was to release the soldiers. Now they are going to negotiate the release - but they could have done that before.

Crushing Hezbollah also didn't succeed for sure. Israel failed in its military goals. Hezbollah is not going to capitulate.

For a whole month many people were killed. A lot of territory was destroyed. A redundant war that could have been avoided. Nobody's celebrating, I can tell you that.

There will be local skirmishes. It's the story of our life: no peace, no borders, a wall of separation. It's only a patch on a patch.

I think there will be a political earthquake. I think the public will think the force wasn't strong enough. Great, huh?

I know I represent a very tiny minority. I am post-Zionist; I think Zionism in its current phase has to come to terms with the tragic consequences of its project. For example, the Palestinian problem.

We need to share this land full and genuinely. Until we do, we will be in a state of war.

You don't need to be a prophet to see this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Scroll down to the comments of RONEN SHAMIR -- read the others as well.

I share this man's anguish and genuine desire for a real peace -- negotiated and political.

[Utah]

[ QUOTE ]
We need to share this land full and genuinely. Until we do, we will be in a state of war.

[/ QUOTE ]Yes. This philosophy has worked so wonderfully for the Israeli's I am surprised they dont do it more [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Oh, and in case you missed the press releases, Israeli's enemies desire is not to share the land but to detroy Israel. This is a minor fact that should not be overlooked.

[ACPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We need to share this land full and genuinely. Until we do, we will be in a state of war.

[/ QUOTE ]Yes. This philosophy has worked so wonderfully for the Israeli's I am surprised they dont do it more [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Oh, and in case you missed the press releases, Israeli's enemies desire is not to share the land but to detroy Israel. This is a minor fact that should not be overlooked.

[/ QUOTE ]

Come now, Israel has not tried to share the land of Israel at all. So far, they have driven people from their homes, expanded settlements at a break neck space and given short shrift to the Palestinians.

Israel has hope once they got over this delusion of the Arab states wanting to destroy them. This is now only in their own minds, IMO. The reality is that the Arab world is ready to deal (and has generally agreed to Israel's right to exist, or at least has accepted the reality). If Israeli policy is going to be driven by listening to extremists, well then there is decades of conflict ahead.

btw, the text I quoted was that of an Israeli living in Israel. Apparently well educated, intelligent, and thoughtful.

[TheDudeAbides]

[ QUOTE ]

Come now, Israel has not tried to share the land of Israel at all. So far, they have driven people from their homes, expanded settlements at a break neck space and given short shrift to the Palestinians.

[/ QUOTE ]

How quickly we forget history. Israel transfered the entire Sinai to Egypt in 1979. How exactly is that not trying to share the land?

[ QUOTE ]

Israel has hope once they got over this delusion of the Arab states wanting to destroy them. This is now only in their own minds, IMO. The reality is that the Arab world is ready to deal (and has generally agreed to Israel's right to exist, or at least has accepted the reality). If Israeli policy is going to be driven by listening to extremists, well then there is decades of conflict ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]
You're joking right?

"Secretary-General Nasrallah’s official stance is that “Israel is an illegal usurper entity, which is based on falsehood, massacres, and illusions, and there is no chance for its survival" (from wikipedia)

Not to mention this

[ACPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Come now, Israel has not tried to share the land of Israel at all. So far, they have driven people from their homes, expanded settlements at a break neck space and given short shrift to the Palestinians.

[/ QUOTE ]

How quickly we forget history. Israel transfered the entire Sinai to Egypt in 1979. How exactly is that not trying to share the land?

[ QUOTE ]

Israel has hope once they got over this delusion of the Arab states wanting to destroy them. This is now only in their own minds, IMO. The reality is that the Arab world is ready to deal (and has generally agreed to Israel's right to exist, or at least has accepted the reality). If Israeli policy is going to be driven by listening to extremists, well then there is decades of conflict ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]
You're joking right?

"Secretary-General Nasrallah’s official stance is that “Israel is an illegal usurper entity, which is based on falsehood, massacres, and illusions, and there is no chance for its survival" (from wikipedia)

Not to mention this

[/ QUOTE ]

Egypt is a good example. A negotiated political settlement. The exact terms to be negotiated. The present conflict is with the Palestinians over WB and Gaza. Settle them politically. Pull out the settlements, let them have a proper state, work with them. There is no choice -- other than to be responsible for a genocide.

I am aware of Nasrullah's statements and Ahmedijan's. These are political statements by politicians. It is called posturing and gamesmanship. We see similar statements from Israel -- just today Peretz suggested negotiations with Syria only to be quickly shot down by Abigdor Lieberman. Why because it looks weak, not because it is a bad idea. More posturing.

Behind the posturing real deals can and must be done. More posturing

[EagleHasLanded]

[ QUOTE ]
Come now, Israel has not tried to share the land of Israel at all. So far, they have driven people from their homes, expanded settlements at a break neck space and given short shrift to the Palestinians.

[/ QUOTE ]

So when Barak offered 100% of the Gaza Strip and 73% of the West Bank (going up to 90+% within 10-25years) Israel was not trying to share the land?

Clinton: "I regret that in 2000 Arafat missed the opportunity to bring that nation into being and pray for the day when the dreams of the Palestinian people for a state and a better life will be realized in a just and lasting peace."

IMO after Arafat spit on the Camp David Summit it was clear 'Palestinians' were not interested in peace. Even so Israel left Gaza and is in the process of dismantling settlements(although slower than I hoped). After being spit on, Israel still moved towards peace and yet it was still terrorized.

I also agree that whatever military action is undertaken has to be completed to the fullest extent. Pulling out now is only going to re-arm the terrorist propoganda machine with a disillusioned sense of victory and will fuel future attacks. Israel should just go back and finish the job.

[TheDudeAbides]

AC - you mentioned a negotitated settlement and I think that's the key word here. The parties at play will never, EVER concede East Jerusalem. From the Israeli standpoint, it doesn't make sense. Would you let your enemy inhabit a portion of your most important city? Not to mention the deep-seeded religious and emotional ties that East Jerusalem carries.

WRT the Arab requests - there has been no negotiation. Just an all-or-none mentality.

[ACPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Come now, Israel has not tried to share the land of Israel at all. So far, they have driven people from their homes, expanded settlements at a break neck space and given short shrift to the Palestinians.

[/ QUOTE ]

So when Barak offered 100% of the Gaza Strip and 73% of the West Bank (going up to 90+% within 10-25years) Israel was not trying to share the land?

Clinton: "I regret that in 2000 Arafat missed the opportunity to bring that nation into being and pray for the day when the dreams of the Palestinian people for a state and a better life will be realized in a just and lasting peace."

IMO after Arafat spit on the Camp David Summit it was clear 'Palestinians' were not interested in peace. Even so Israel left Gaza and is in the process of dismantling settlements(although slower than I hoped). After being spit on, Israel still moved towards peace and yet it was still terrorized.

I also agree that whatever military action is undertaken has to be completed to the fullest extent. Pulling out now is only going to re-arm the terrorist propoganda machine with a disillusioned sense of victory and will fuel future attacks. Israel should just go back and finish the job.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only way for the military to finish the job is to kill every man, woman and child -- from Pakistan to Turkey. Is that worth it? How is that different from the Caliphate ideals of Bin Ladin etc.

Both sides take their tribalism to extremes. It is increasingly impossible to distinguish the flavors of terrorism.

[ACPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
AC - you mentioned a negotitated settlement and I think that's the key word here. The parties at play will never, EVER concede East Jerusalem. From the Israeli standpoint, it doesn't make sense. Would you let your enemy inhabit a portion of your most important city? Not to mention the deep-seeded religious and emotional ties that East Jerusalem carries.

WRT the Arab requests - there has been no negotiation. Just an all-or-none mentality.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Arab leadership has recognized Israel's right to exist. IT is just the fringe elements that are against it.

See specifically the Arab League's offer for recognition of Israel that was rejected. The offer was unanimously accepted by the Arab League. The offer was rejected by Israel though it could have been a very important step towards a negotiated solution.

To continue to argue that mainstream Arab states are for the destruction of Israel is not borne out by the facts. The Arab states have recognized that Israel is not going away.