Being told "professional poker doesn't contribute to society."

[Mark1808]

Anyone who provides a product or service that others are willing to pay for is "contributing" to society. The poker pro is no differant. Their willingness to spend hours at tables that create games and action make it possible for the recreational player to come in and entertain himself. Who knows, maybe the cancer researcher is able to do better research after a few hours relaxing and playing poker and wouldn't have a game if not for the legions of pros that insure readily available games.

People mistakenly project their own values on others. If someone is willing to pay for something it has value to that person irrespective of what a 3rd party thinks.

[Thremp]

Taxes don't contribute to society. They are usually a poor reallocation of utility from person to person. Can we stop the madness.

[stinkypete]

[ QUOTE ]

1: Does poker contribute to society?
- Yes, through taxation.

[/ QUOTE ]

ya, it's been mentioned by a lot of other tards in this thread. but none of them have been able to give a remotely convincing argument suggesting that tax is somehow a contribution.

[stinkypete]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone who provides a product or service that others are willing to pay for is "contributing" to society. The poker pro is no differant. Their willingness to spend hours at tables that create games and action make it possible for the recreational player to come in and entertain himself. Who knows, maybe the cancer researcher is able to do better research after a few hours relaxing and playing poker and wouldn't have a game if not for the legions of pros that insure readily available games.

[/ QUOTE ]

this point would be valid if those games didn't exist anyway, but they do. that might not be true for the highest stakes games, so that point has some validity there. you can also argue that some people like the idea of playing with "pros" and hence the pros contribute to their happiness.

there is some entertainment value in it, but it's extremely small.

[Dima2000123]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you believe in capitalism? If you believe in capitalism; you believe in the invisible hand theory, and if you believe in the invisible hand theory; then being a professional poker player is ultimately productive.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't believe in the invisible hand, and no person educated in economics should believe in the invisible hand theory. What every educated person should do is understand the invisible hand theory. They should understand what makes invisible hand work when it does work, and what makes it fail to work when it fails to work.

What makes invisible hand fail to work are the externalities. If I produce something that enriches me by $1,000, but in the process I inflict $2,000 worth of damage to the environment, then I'm not being productive. I'm actually being destructive, I'm leaving society $1,000 poorer by my activities, and yet the invisible hand doesn't stop me. I get my profit, and I don't care that other people have to pony up $2,000 to clean up after me. That $2,000 is the externality.

Invisible hand works only when there are no externalities. Poker players are obviously inflicting an externality during the course of their work, their win comes directly from somebody else's loss. Therefore, invisible hand doesn't work, and you can stop invoking it in a belief that it magically proves your point with no effort required on your part.

[jellesi]

Very interesting thread. Thanks for starting it Lyric. It's about time stuff like this comes up to the surface regarding the 'profession' poker!

I bet most of the guys playing poker for a living just whipe their thoughts of guilt under their mental carpet. If they are enough in tune with themselves to feel any at all. And yes, you should most probably feel a bit guilty since you in no way at all contribute to make the world a better place. And ultimately, I'm sure that's what we all would like to do if we dig deep inside.

Someone once compared a professional poker player to a drug dealer and to be honest, I don't think he was that far off. It went something like poker players sell a certain rush, some sort of dream of a better place for the losing player for a while, and then finally the 'pro' ends up with most of his money and the loser leaves feeling empty, discouraged and not feeling good about his losses. Sort of what you feel after doing some extacy, coke or another drug. Obviously not the same feeling but you get the point.

Poker players saying they contribute by spending more money are probably never in their lives going to get it anyway. And the guys saying they contribute by paying taxes I would refer to a former speaker comparing it to pay taxes from stealing. Poker is just an 'honest' form of stealing.

Then there are the guys like Barry G giving of his winnings to charity. Boy, imagine the guilt he feels inside for doing what he does. Making loads of money from other peoples misery is essentially what you do when playing poker for big money. And your plate is not going to be clean for giving a fraction of it to charity. Karma.
If anyone could argue against this, please do because I would be very pleased in learning such so that I could get my own weights of my shoulders.

I, for one, am not proud when saying I'm a professional poker player. But I just can't see a way out of it as long as I'm making the kind of money I do. Guilt or no guilt. I'm in awe to you people who actually feel you are doing something good or productive, but wow, you are experts at fooling yourselves!

P.S Stinkypete, how come you still play feeling the way about this that you seem to do?
And Raptor, are you some kind of hero for paying 44% of $2M yearly or whatever it is you make? Are you looking for a pat on the shoulder from fellow gamblers? Just think again and of the people you won that money from. Who is paying, them or you? Maybe, just maybe, you will wake up a little.

Peace out
/
J

[homeboy604]

[ QUOTE ]


Someone once compared a professional poker player to a drug dealer and to be honest, I don't think he was that far off. It went something like poker players sell a certain rush, some sort of dream of a better place for the losing player for a while, and then finally the 'pro' ends up with most of his money and the loser leaves feeling empty, discouraged and not feeling good about his losses. Sort of what you feel after doing some extacy, coke or another drug. Obviously not the same feeling but you get the point.


[/ QUOTE ]

its not at all the same.

[stinkypete]

[ QUOTE ]
P.S Stinkypete, how come you still play feeling the way about this that you seem to do?

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't have a problem with playing poker. i don't have a problem taking other players' money - the fish would lose it all to the other pros or to the rake anyway. really i'm just taking from the other pros by reducing their expectation.

i like money, and the fact that i contribute very little to society isn't really enough to make me go do something productive instead. if i'm going to do something productive, it will likely be in a situation where i'm getting paid well to do it. but i am still in school and i hope to do something productive one day. if i don't, it won't really bother me.

as for the stuff about outlawing gambling - i think society would probably be better off if gambling on games of chance were outlawed. but if i were voting on that bill, i would vote against it, because i'm greedy and i like money.

[bigbb33]

[ QUOTE ]
Very interesting thread. Thanks for starting it Lyric. It's about time stuff like this comes up to the surface regarding the 'profession' poker!

I bet most of the guys playing poker for a living just whipe their thoughts of guilt under their mental carpet. If they are enough in tune with themselves to feel any at all. And yes, you should most probably feel a bit guilty since you in no way at all contribute to make the world a better place. And ultimately, I'm sure that's what we all would like to do if we dig deep inside.

Someone once compared a professional poker player to a drug dealer and to be honest, I don't think he was that far off. It went something like poker players sell a certain rush, some sort of dream of a better place for the losing player for a while, and then finally the 'pro' ends up with most of his money and the loser leaves feeling empty, discouraged and not feeling good about his losses. Sort of what you feel after doing some extacy, coke or another drug. Obviously not the same feeling but you get the point.

Poker players saying they contribute by spending more money are probably never in their lives going to get it anyway. And the guys saying they contribute by paying taxes I would refer to a former speaker comparing it to pay taxes from stealing. Poker is just an 'honest' form of stealing.

Then there are the guys like Barry G giving of his winnings to charity. Boy, imagine the guilt he feels inside for doing what he does. Making loads of money from other peoples misery is essentially what you do when playing poker for big money. And your plate is not going to be clean for giving a fraction of it to charity. Karma.
If anyone could argue against this, please do because I would be very pleased in learning such so that I could get my own weights of my shoulders.

I, for one, am not proud when saying I'm a professional poker player. But I just can't see a way out of it as long as I'm making the kind of money I do. Guilt or no guilt. I'm in awe to you people who actually feel you are doing something good or productive, but wow, you are experts at fooling yourselves!

P.S Stinkypete, how come you still play feeling the way about this that you seem to do?
And Raptor, are you some kind of hero for paying 44% of $2M yearly or whatever it is you make? Are you looking for a pat on the shoulder from fellow gamblers? Just think again and of the people you won that money from. Who is paying, them or you? Maybe, just maybe, you will wake up a little.

Peace out
/
J

[/ QUOTE ]

Until society wants to give me all the material possessions, food, etc I want for free, I don't give a [censored]. But as long as my computer costs money, rent isn't free, and I have to pay for food, I'm not going to make it a priority to 'contribute to society' in the act of making money. I'm going to make getting money my priority. So personally, I don't give a [censored] what you or anyone else thinks.

Not that you are higher or mightier (if you aren't a poker pro) anyway. You think the trashman does my trash because he wants to contribute to society? [censored] that, he collects the trash because it's highest paying job he could get with his skillset and history. Same for the bank clerks and grocery managers. The reason other people bring up the 'contribution to society' is because they are jealous and can't stand the fact that I/you make so much money 'easily'.

And I don't give a [censored].

[five4suited]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't sign the social contract.

[/ QUOTE ]

We live in a country whose guiding ideology is post-modern capitalism. There is no social contract.

Poker is one of the most honest professions there is. We're not trying to sell somebody something for more than it cost us to make it, and we're not paying people less than the profit we earn from their labor. When you sit down at a poker table and play for real money, there is but one objective to the economic exchange, and everybody is fully aware of it when they sit down.

I think America's guiding ideology these days can be summarized as caveat emptor, just like at the poker table, and at the table, at least we're honest about it.