Just Saw Sicko, Now Have Question

[Vagos]

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Libertarianism, in it's pure form, implemented in a country the size of the US, would be the biggest human catastrophe the earth has ever known.

Discuss.

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Over time it definitely would be. If given enough time, casualties would match that of Stalin and Hitler.

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The instant someone talks about AC being "implemented" is the instant I realize they misunderstand the position they are arguing against.

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i love your cheap semantics. ok, fine, i'll use your lingo. removing the fascist power structure is analagous to implementing AC.

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Haha, you just blindly assert (no proof, no argument, nothing) that AC would match the horror and destruction of two of the worst dictatorships in human history and I'm the one playing cheap?

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there's no question that it would if given enough time, imo. and there is no way for me or you to prove our point on this topic because the system you advocate has never been tried in today's world.

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Except I wasn't trying to prove any point. You're the one making a claim that's completely baseless. The burden is on you.

You have done nothing to even begin and try to demonstrate how a truly AC society (again, I'm still not sure you understand the position you're arguing against) might cause the kind of bloodshed only seen under history's most violent heads of state.

[guids]

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Health care is not a right, you cant prove that it is, so stop saying it is, just because you believe it so, just means that you are selfish.

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Guids - How can you prove health insurance is or isn't a right?

And here is a link to a definition of selfish - http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/selfish - you have got to be trolling or kidding with that comment.

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I cant prove it? Do I really need to post the Bill of Rights?


and yes, it is selfish for someone to think that they can take my hard earned money, and do what they want with it as they see fit. This is the epitome of selfish.

[John Spartan]

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Health care is not a right, you cant prove that it is, so stop saying it is, just because you believe it so, just means that you are selfish.

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Guids - How can you prove health insurance is or isn't a right?

And here is a link to a definition of selfish - http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/selfish - you have got to be trolling or kidding with that comment.

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I cant prove it? Do I really need to post the Bill of Rights?


and yes, it is selfish for someone to think that they can take my hard earned money, and do what they want with it as they see fit. This is the epitome of selfish.

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READ THE DEFINITION GUIDY

1 : concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself : seeking or concentrating on one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others
2 : arising from concern with one's own welfare or advantage in disregard of others <a selfish act>

How am I being selfish? I'm not looking out for my own welfare here. I have private health insurance. I'm not trying to gain an advantage over other people. You have no clue what the word selfish means if you're using it in this way.

Now I'm sure you'll respond with some profanity laced post that has nothing to do with the subject, as you always do when confronted with facts.

[guids]

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Health care is not a right, you cant prove that it is, so stop saying it is, just because you believe it so, just means that you are selfish.

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Guids - How can you prove health insurance is or isn't a right?

And here is a link to a definition of selfish - http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/selfish - you have got to be trolling or kidding with that comment.

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I cant prove it? Do I really need to post the Bill of Rights?


and yes, it is selfish for someone to think that they can take my hard earned money, and do what they want with it as they see fit. This is the epitome of selfish.

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READ THE DEFINITION GUIDY

1 : concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself : seeking or concentrating on one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others
2 : arising from concern with one's own welfare or advantage in disregard of others <a selfish act>

How am I being selfish? I'm not looking out for my own welfare here. I have private health insurance. I'm not trying to gain an advantage over other people. You have no clue what the word selfish means if you're using it in this way.

Now I'm sure you'll respond with some profanity laced post that has nothing to do with the subject, as you always do when confronted with facts.

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you are selfishly trying to impose [censored] ideals on people who dont agree with you.

[Tupacia]

Guids,

Saying something should be considered a right is simply a value judgment. Arguments like "you can't prove that health care is a right so it isn't" totally miss the boat. Why should free speech be considered a right? Because we as a society have deemed that a culture in which people could speak freely without fear of retribution is more attractive than one in which that isn't true. People who believe health care should be considered a right are saying the same thing about an acceptable level of health care. It's not something that can be "proved" one way or the other.

[guids]

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Guids,

Saying something should be considered a right is simply a value judgment. Arguments like "you can't prove that health care is a right so it isn't" totally miss the boat. Why should free speech be considered a right? Because we as a society have deemed that a culture in which people could speak freely without fear of retribution is more attractive than one in which that isn't true. People who believe health care should be considered a right are saying the same thing about an acceptable level of health care. It's not something that can be "proved" one way or the other.

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Are you an American? this may be where the confusion comes in (Im not being snide, Im serious). Freedom of speech is a right, because it is in teh constitution as a right. Free Healthcare is not a right granted by teh constitution, so I can prove it. If there was a vote, and the constitution was amended than things would be different and I would defer to teh will of the people, but as of right now, its not.

[jackdaniels]

The idea that since the gov't already does a lot of things that it shouldn't do (funding education, social services, infrastructure etc.. etc..) then there is a precedent for it to do another thing it shouldn't do (fund a universal health care program) is flawed.

Telling people they shoudl move elsewhere if they don't like it is equally flawed. What people are telling you is that universal health care, the way you describe it (no opt in) is morally wrong and they'd rather have social change that would represent a morally just system, even at the cost of "growing pains" (educating the multitudes who would gladly raise someone elses taxes to benefit themselves). There is really no need to have a practical reason why this wouldn't work (though inefficiencies do come to mind), a morally bankrupt idea is wrong whether there are practical reasons immediately apparant or not.

A gov't funed system one is forced to participate in is very different than when one deals with a corporation. With the one, you can choose to buy from a competitor or choose a different prodcut (in the case of a monopoly). With the other, you are FORCED to make the purchase with the threat of force behind the "request". Organized crime operates in the same fashion - you either pay their "protection" fees or you suffer the consequences.

[Tupacia]

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Guids,

Saying something should be considered a right is simply a value judgment. Arguments like "you can't prove that health care is a right so it isn't" totally miss the boat. Why should free speech be considered a right? Because we as a society have deemed that a culture in which people could speak freely without fear of retribution is more attractive than one in which that isn't true. People who believe health care should be considered a right are saying the same thing about an acceptable level of health care. It's not something that can be "proved" one way or the other.

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Are you an American? this may be where the confusion comes in (Im not being snide, Im serious). Freedom of speech is a right, because it is in teh constitution as a right. Free Healthcare is not a right granted by teh constitution, so I can prove it. If there was a vote, and the constitution was amended than things would be different and I would defer to teh will of the people, but as of right now, its not.

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Yes, I am an American. Nobody is arguing that the "right to healthcare" is in the Bill of Rights. But you are naive if you think that as an American you enjoy just the rights outlined in the Bill Of Rights. The courts and society have recognized numerous other rights not codified in the Constitution. For someone seemingly so sympathetic to libertarian ideals, you have a very statist conception of what rights are.

The question is not whether it should be a right codified in some document but whether we should consider it as such in making decisions.

[UATrewqaz]

Health care is very important and people can't really live good lives without it, so the government should make sure everyone has it.

And you know, in our modern age transportation is a necessity. If you don't have a car or some other form of personal transportation you don't have nearly as many job opportunities, so everyone should get cars too. It's not fair rich people can buy them and poor people can't.

The internet is also vital. Anyone without a computer and net connection is crippled in life, so the government should provide that too.

And hell, even a job itself, everyone needs one, so the government is responsible for providing every person with a job too!

The government probably should own and control all the land, capital, and natural resources, there really isn't another way for them to fufill all these demands. Those silly private industries and their greed gets in the way.

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[John Spartan]

yep, that's basically what the right-wingers and AC'ists have resorted to. stupid slippery slope arguments and other fallacies because they can't debate the merits.