Prelim review of Ultimate Guide to Poker Tells

[jct]

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I hope you included my comments which are that tells have a little bit of value but that's it.

MM

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I have this book, and while it wasn't a quote attributed to anyone, it states clearly that tells only have a small value and only if it causes you to act differently than you would have without the tell.

I don't have Caro's book, I had been meaning to pick it up but saw this book recommended by someone at another forum I read and got it instead. I feel like it was a worthy buy. Maybe this book has more value to those that don't have Caro's book.

[Noo Yawk]

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I would not count you among "the best players in the business". Do you feel you are?

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The books Mason's written and published are among the best in the business, and have been for many years. Where do you see yourself compared to Mason in this area?

As far as playing, where do you see yourself as a player? Have the tell's you've written about made you many millions from playing, or are you winning money based on the mathematical and strategic concepts that Mason and David put in print for you to learn from many years ago?

[MRBAA]

One of the things that makes our book valuable is that we discuss the need to use tells in the context of sound strategic play and hand-reading based on betting patterns and game situations. Those things are all more important than tells. However we do believe that tells have more value than many players believe for one important reason: they occur with great frequency in live play. In low limit games (through 10-20), I can spot tells on almost every hand. So while you can only use them to change your play rarely, because they occur so frequently there are still a relatively large number of occaisions you'll be able to gain or save a bet, or even sometimes win an entire pot. We devote a fair bit of space to discussing the value of tells, and how to use them in context.

Here's a recent example from a 1-5 stud game I play in, with a 1-10 limit on the river. An aggressive, thinking player has been leading the betting with a garbage board. I have jacks up which don't improve on the river and he bets into me and two other players. Both of them fold. Now it's on me. His betting throughout the hand, and willingness to max bet the river into three players indicates strength. But the pot is $100+, so I'm getting 10-1 closing the action on a call, and this player is capable of a bluff. So I asked him if he wanted a call, and he gave me a very relaxed answer. That final tell turned a call into a fold for me. In this particular hand, he showed his cards and he did, indeed, have a concealed full house (he'd made hidden trips on fifth and filled on the river).

While tells are less frequent at higher levels, they can also be more valuable. Many top players look for tells, and make considerable efforts to avoid giving off tells themselves.

I am in no way disparaging the quality of many of the 2+2 books by questioning Mason's appearing to group himself with the best players in the game. I don't think he's ever been considered more than a solid mid-limit pro, but there may be information here I'm not aware of.

[Noo Yawk]

Here's a recent example from a 1-5 stud game I play in, with a 1-10 limit on the river. An aggressive, thinking player has been leading the betting with a garbage board. I have jacks up which don't improve on the river and he bets into me and two other players. Both of them fold. Now it's on me. His betting throughout the hand, and willingness to max bet the river into three players indicates strength. But the pot is $100+, so I'm getting 10-1 closing the action on a call, and this player is capable of a bluff. So I asked him if he wanted a call, and he gave me a very relaxed answer. That final tell turned a call into a fold for me. In this particular hand, he showed his cards and he did, indeed, have a concealed full house (he'd made hidden trips on fifth and filled on the river).

Without a description of the other 2 players, the villians thoughts on his opponents, all the boards and the action leading up to 7th, it's hard to comment on the hand, but a thinking player bets the max into 3 other players on 7th with a garbage board and you're leaning towards a call? The problem I have is that you reccomend folding from the confident answer your opponent gives to your question, rather than all the more pertinent factors leading up to your decision.

While tells are less frequent at higher levels, they can also be more valuable. Many top players look for tells, and make considerable efforts to avoid giving off tells themselves.

More pro's spew BS about tells to give themselves an aura of greatness than for any other reason.

[Mason Malmuth]

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Here's a recent example from a 1-5 stud game I play in, with a 1-10 limit on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

The last game I played in was a $100-$200 hold 'em. Does that make me one of "the players in the business?"

[ QUOTE ]
An aggressive, thinking player has been leading the betting with a garbage board. I have jacks up which don't improve on the river and he bets into me and two other players. Both of them fold. Now it's on me. His betting throughout the hand, and willingness to max bet the river into three players indicates strength. But the pot is $100+, so I'm getting 10-1 closing the action on a call, and this player is capable of a bluff. So I asked him if he wanted a call, and he gave me a very relaxed answer. That final tell turned a call into a fold for me. In this particular hand, he showed his cards and he did, indeed, have a concealed full house (he'd made hidden trips on fifth and filled on the river).


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There are strategic reasons why you fold here everytime and the tell, assuming it is accurate, should have no value.

MM

[MRBAA]

"The last game I played in was a $100-$200 hold 'em. Does that make me one of "the players in the business?"

No.

[steamboatin]

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The last game I played in was a $100-$200 hold 'em. Does that make me one of "the players in the business?"



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You are the Gran Poohbah and he is the Grand poopoo. Don't even bother with someone that rehashed another book and wants to believe he has the chops. Hell he plays lower than me and I suck.

[Wires]

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[ QUOTE ]
The last game I played in was a $100-$200 hold 'em. Does that make me one of "the players in the business?"



[/ QUOTE ]

You are the Gran Poohbah and he is the Grand poopoo. Don't even bother with someone that rehashed another book and wants to believe he has the chops. Hell he plays lower than me and I suck.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you read the book? How familiar are you with his "chops"? I love the 2+2 texts as much as anyone here - I've already preordered the upcoming Harrington and Sklansky/Miller books - but I don't feel the need to blindly trash any new book that comes along.

Read the book and then offer your critique. Don't be such a homer.

[steamboatin]

[ QUOTE ]
Have you read the book? How familiar are you with his "chops"? I love the 2+2 texts as much as anyone here - I've already preordered the upcoming Harrington and Sklansky/Miller books - but I don't feel the need to blindly trash any new book that comes along.

Read the book and then offer your critique. Don't be such a homer.

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He says Mason doesn't play big then gives an example from 1-5 stud, that told me plenty.

How many posters have to say it is a rehash of Mike Caro before I believe them? Not many.

What is the point of the Books & Publications forum? I believe it is to share opinions about the quality of books available so we don't go buy junk. A couple of negative reviews that go unchallenged is suffcient evidence for me.

WTF is a homer? I don't watch many cartoons so I might have to dumb down a little so I can follow your conversation.

[Wires]

Heh. The fact that you instinctively assumed a "homer" was cartoon related makes your "dumbing things down" comment kind of silly. (C'mon, admit it. You tossed out the cartoon reference because you know Homer is a Simpsons character. It's ok, I like that show too.)

Actually a "homer" refers to a sports fan who automatically roots for and struggles to find any fault with their home team - even though their deficiencies are glaringly obvious to the rest of the world.

Anyhow my point was only that you should take a look at the book yourself (or wait for more reviews to roll in) before defaulting to the 2+2 party line. There have been very few reviews of this book posted thus far. In this thread I read 2 negative (The OP and Texibus) and 2 fairly positive (Howard Schwartz of the Gambler's Bookstore and jct).

I think you had an emotional reponse to the authors negative attitude towards Mason as opposed to any actual feelings about the book itself.

The book may very well be terrible and just a lazy rehash of Caro. We shall see.