Why M is Overrated

[JayTee]

Question for OP

Are you suggesting that players in the BB are not considering their pot odds? In the situation you give there are antes. IMO this is where M becomes more important than # of BBs. Before antes they are a representation of the same thing.

[iSTRONG]

you have less folding equity if the blinds are 200/400 and no antes than if with the same blinds + antes; therefore M matters more than number of BBs.

edit: JayTee beat me to it.

[locutus2002]

I totally agree with this poster.

The most important thing about your stack is your FE which is most easily counted by BB.

M varies from BB most significantly in a tournament with relatively large antes (hence fast structures) (such as WPT) which is not offered by any of the major online poker sites.

[Bakes]

I think FE is more accurately represented by the pot odds that your opponents are getting to call your push (raise), which is more easily calculated using M than "eyeballing" how many big blinds your raise is.

If someone open-pushes into my big blind from the SB, I will calculate the pot odds and my stack rather than counting the number of big blinds the push is.

[Art Vandelay]

M, BB, it's all just stupid math. Looking into someone's soul is what makes a player.

[runout_mick]

[ QUOTE ]
M, BB, it's all just stupid math. Looking into someone's soul is what makes a player.

[/ QUOTE ]

You, me, and Phil, man.

You, me, and Phil...

[ZBTHorton]

[ QUOTE ]
I totally agree with this poster.

The most important thing about your stack is your FE which is most easily counted by BB.



[/ QUOTE ]

The question isn't how it can most "easily" be computed, we are trying to obtain a "complete" analysis.

The concept of FE is based on pot odds. Pot odds cannot completely be computed without factoring in any applicable antes. This is very simple. Why would you want to calculate your BB's if they are a non issue? M is WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY more important.

[NoahSD]

M is all that matters when considering how much stealing the blinds + antes earns you.

M is the only thing that matters when considering what pot odds everyone but the SB and BB will be getting on a push and how much you'll earn if you get called and win by one of these people.

Both M and number of BBs matter when considering these things for SB and BB.

[locutus2002]

You can't have a complete analysis without considering the structure, your place, table conditions etc.

M is just a number, difficult to calculate for those of us not so mathematically (or lazy) inclined.

The number would have no meaning if it weren't for the zones described in HOH: particularly the M<10 zone.

I think his consideration of M and zones is biased towards major live tournaments which are very different from typical online play.

At M=9 on the WSOP you have T18,900 at 400/800/100; avg stack is ~60,000
At M=9 on Stars you have T14,850 at 400/800/50; avg stack is ~25,000.

The avg stack numbers are estimates but the point is that that when your M is low you are much further behind the avg stack on the WSOP. The structure is much faster on the WSOP due to fewer hands per 5 minutes (sometimes 1), and the large antes. In summary, I don't think red zone theory applies to online poker. Other than that, M sounds cool, and Magriel got to leave a legacy to poker.
For players considering where the desperation line is, I think BB=10 (or less) is much more appropriate than M=10 - for online play.

[Spee]

[ QUOTE ]
You can't have a complete analysis without considering .... your place ....

M is just a number

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeaaaaa, this part I like. Thank you.

Where do you sit relative to the short money? Where do you sit relative to chip leader? Where do you sit relative to the other stacks at your table? These are most important.

M doesn't mean doodly-squat late in the tournament if you are 2 or 3 doubles from the money and and another 2 or 3 doubles from the chip leader. You have to start moving some plastic, whether your M is two or ten.

M also doesn't mean doodly-squat if you and everyone at your table at that moment have the same M. If everyone has an M of 5 and you're the only one chunking, then good on ya. If everyone has an M of 8 and you're the only one not chunking, then you're probably in more trouble than you think.

But hey whatever, if one wants to play by the same book that everyone else has probably read, then be prepared to get regularly thumped by the people who know what you know, see what you do, and adjust accordingly.