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#12
12-14-2005, 04:58 PM
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Re: The more I\'ve read the more I\'ve lost money
[ QUOTE ]
I am considering moving this thread to BBBV. I'll let the forum decide. Opinions? [/ QUOTE ] Absolutely not. It belongs here. There are a great many players suffering the same fate at the micro limits, and continually ridiculing them or telling them to suck it up and raise isn't going to help. The books, and nearly 100% of the responses to hand posts on this forum, do indeed encourage you to play a hand like you would against a sane person, which almost never works against the lunatics that play the micro limits. 
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#13
12-14-2005, 05:52 PM
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Re: The more I\'ve read the more I\'ve lost money
[ QUOTE ]
Absolutely not. It belongs here. There are a great many players suffering the same fate at the micro limits, and continually ridiculing them or telling them to suck it up and raise isn't going to help. The books, and nearly 100% of the responses to hand posts on this forum, do indeed encourage you to play a hand like you would against a sane person, which almost never works against the lunatics that play the micro limits. [/ QUOTE ] I am sorry that you don't feel the advice in the forum is useful. However, neither you nor the OP have made a convincing case for the advice being bad. It is the same doctrine that I used at .05/.10 and use now at 1/2. The posters in this forum, virtually without exception, either play micro-limits now or have played them in the past and won sufficient bankroll to move up. Since you seem to feel that the OP needs additional help, I do have a few thoughts. Let me address a few points of concern from the OP. To the OP: [ QUOTE ] I've been very patient especially in 10 player limit ring games and I've waited for playable hands. But, every time I raise pre-flop at least 4-5 players call. Then if I miss the flop I pretty much have to fold every time. If I hit, usually at least two players call me all the way down to the river and it's a 50/50 chance they'll beat me in the end. [/ QUOTE ] 1. You might want to make sure you are counting all of your outs on the flop. Often, in a 5-way raised pot you will have odds to peel on the flop even if at first glance it looks like you have nothing. Two overcards and a BDFD will give you correct or nearly correct odds to peel if the flop is not a problematic one. Backdoor straight draws will also add between .5 and 1.5 outs and are easy to overlook. 2. When you do hit the flop and they call you all the way to the end, you make money. If you lose 50% of the time and win 50% of the time, you take all that extra money from (frequently more than one opponent) when they call you down and you win. You will win fewer pots but they will be much bigger. [ QUOTE ] Every time I have a hand the number of my opponents destroy the advantage I have for example with my QQ. Then the blinds slowly eat my stack away and after an hour or so I become impatient and quit. [/ QUOTE ] 1) Almost every full-ring session I play I start out losing, unless I am running hot. That is because I must pay blinds while I am waiting for playable hands. Then if a draw that if I have correctly pumped doesn't come in, I will be down even further. If you become frustrated and quit when this happens, all you are doing is guaranteeing yourself a losing session. It is like the player who "never has a losing day" because he always quits as soon as he is up a bit, but in reverse. If you play this way, especially with the streaky micro-limits, it is entirely possible for you to lose 6 days out of 7 and still be up for the week. But it's not a very satisfying feeling. 2) You will tilt less if you remind yourself that you are never guaranteed to win a pot. Yes, it's lovely to see KK after 3 circuits of lousy hands, but there is no karmic force that promises you a win with your KK just because you sat and patiently waited for it. [ QUOTE ] The books don't help because they assume your opponents play like you but they don't. I just can't adapt to the players and be a winning player. [/ QUOTE ] 1) If you have read Small Stakes HoldEm and Winning Low Limit Hold'em, you profoundly misunderstood them if you thought that they assume your opponents play well. Quite the reverse. If you have not read them, why not? 2) The key to "adapting" to players who just call call call, is: play solid poker. Don't get fancy. When you have a hand, bet it. Don't slowplay...they will call anyway. Expect to win fewer, larger pots. Don't be impatient. You can lose a lot of pots and make it all back when you flop the nut flush draw, pump it, turn the flush and 3 people still call all the way to the river. Study more. Post hands.
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#14
12-14-2005, 06:14 PM
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Re: The more I\'ve read the more I\'ve lost money
THis sentence stood out to me:
[ QUOTE ] If I hit, usually at least two players call me all the way down to the river and it's a 50/50 chance they'll beat me in the end. [/ QUOTE ] You realize that if you are only putting 33% of the money in this is a winning proposition for you, right? As for yr post in general: a lot of people feel this way. You do the right thing, and dammit if you don't loose anyway. And them you lose the next time. And the next. And so on. It's easy to lose heart. I understand that. The thing is, if you play correctly, over the LONG RUN, your results will approach what it should be. It's easy for me or someone else to say that "you don't really understand poker all that well" (which I don't think you do -- not an insult by any means). What you need to hear more is that you need to learn quite a bit about poker, from the mathematical to the emotional. It's a comprehensive (and very strange!!) game. You can play nearly perfectly and lose your ass one session. Then you can play like crap and win a buttload the next. My advise is really just try to soak up poker knowledge. Familiarize yrself with the game. Read and listen. And don't be afraid to post hands. Good luck, Greg
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#15
12-14-2005, 06:42 PM
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Re: The more I\'ve read the more I\'ve lost money
in SUPER-DUPER micro-limits, 90% of players play as if they're playing with PLAY MONEY! so forget about sticking to MOST of the rules you've read. the bet is so small that players will call MOST of the time even if they have 32o.
move up to the 1/2 table (just for a couple hours) and THEN you'll see the stuff that you've read take more of an effect...
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#17
12-14-2005, 06:49 PM
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Re: The more I\'ve read the more I\'ve lost money
I've never played at these limits but I'd assume it's going to hard to be playing against people who are playing as if they are playing with play money. It's great when someone like this is at the table, but if 8 players are calling because it's a penny to see the turn, I doubt books are going to help.
I think you need to get to the .5/1 level before a book will give you a significant advantage in the game. I could be wrong because I started playing 2/4, but I've been that moron at a .02/.04 table raising every hand to the river no matter what, so I assume there are a lot of people doing that. At the very least, it seems the variance will be huge and rough on a new player.
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#18
12-14-2005, 06:58 PM
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Re: The more I\'ve read the more I\'ve lost money
Sorry. The variance will be lower -- or should be 1) becuase the other players are so bad, and 2) yr winrate is enhanced by the lack of rake. This game is so crushable you only really need a 200bb roll. Variance is much less.
I started at .02/.04 and built it. SSHE "loose" games actually are very similar to .05/.1 and .02/.04 games. SSHE is a very nice blueprint for crushing those games.
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#20
12-14-2005, 07:12 PM
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Re: The more I\'ve read the more I\'ve lost money
For my $0.02, this OP and some responses reminds me of the section in the beginning of SSHE, where Miller talks about how it's wrong to assume that you'll do better at higher limits because people respect your raises more. C'mon people, it's other players' mistakes that make us $$$ long term. Yeah it sucks when that 14:1 shot hits 3 times in a session or whatever, but I think the point is that the OP is being too results oriented and isn't being patient enough. I've been there myself, probably most of us have. My mantra at the tables is to play each hand, each street as mistake free as I can.
To the OP, I feel your pain. Review your HHs, if you're like me, you'll find many leaks if you think critically about your play. Reread SSHE, post here, reply to posts and take the long view.
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