Going Deeper

[MLG]

KneeCo,
Learn to count to 3. All three of your points are good.

Overpairs are a good example of how hand values change. Specifically how they change with respect to opponents. Some guys will let them selves be stacked for 300BBs with top pair, against them you need to play them strongly. Against decent opponents though, you need to walk the line between extracting value and getting to showdown.

Position is much more important deep stacked, I should have included that.

Extracting Value is the flip side of pot control. You are 100% correct, and the balance between pot control and extracting value is as important as pot control. Hand reading is the key to finding the balance.

[Keevon]

I'll give this a shot even though my deep stack concepts are pretty terrible I think.

#3: I'm thinking an example of this is the difference between holding TPGK on a 2 flush flop, and holding top 2pair, or a set on a 2 flush flop. In the TPGK case you can apply pot control and check behind on the flop, but doing so is criminal in the 2pair/set case since you will lose so much value from your hand. To apply it to what MLG says, TPGK isn't really forced to call a bet when the 3rd flush card hits the river (and keeping that bet small with pot control also helps the case). But with a set, you really can't lay down in that situation.

#5: A blocking bet scenario is maybe something like a small bet with a set on a 4flush board. A low ranked card of that suit will likely fold, while you MIGHT get a call from a hand like top 2pair. I think this is a bit of a stretch though, and I'm sure there are MUCH better (and likely more correct) examples.

[NoahSD]

Great post MLG.

I disagree with #3. I think there are a lot of reasons that you're ignoring for playing a made hand fast on a coordinated board. For example, if you semibluff enough, a decent opponent will notice this and give you more action on draw-heavy boards. Also, scare cards kill the action, which is generally bad for good players.

[MLG]

Keevon,
Dont sell yourself short. Those are a couple of pretty good examples.

[odellthurman]

One thing that I think it takes a while to get your mind around is the effect of preflop raises when stacks are deep in relation to the big blinds. When stacks are not so deep, you usually get an idea as to the strength of other players' hands when you raise to 3 or 4 BBs preflop and get a call. But in deepstacked poker, this becomes much more difficult.

[LearnedfromTV]

Good thread.

My first thought is that with medium strength hands I generally have a sense of how many streets I should feel comfortable putting in bets on before the range I'm facing (a range willing to put in x bets) is too strong for me. This may mean bet/check/bet or bet/call/fold or check/call/bet or check/bet/check or... you get the idea. This may include raising the flop, checking the turn, and calling/betting the river as a way to "get in 3-bets."

I don't have enough deep stack experience or cash game experience, but my sense is that in deep stacked situations if you are value betting three streets often you are either a very good lag who also bluffs multiple streets often and experiences a ton of variance, or you are overplaying hands, or you are playing very bad players.

The obvious difference between 30BB and 150BB is that there are way more hands you go broke with with 30 BB. I think the trickier difference to navigate is that the standard way to get yourself to "going broke" in a 30BB situation is not necessarily the best way to put 30BB into a pot in a 150 BB situation, given the same hand, opponent, action.

For example, with 30BB, if you raise preflop with AK, get two callers, flop an Ace, and get bet into on the flop, you're nearly always going to be getting your money in by the turn. In a 150BB situation, getting that much into the pot by the turn may be dangerous because, depending on the way you got yourself there and the opponent, you may open yourself up to facing a large river bet that you don't know what to do with.

[Lloyd]

MLG,

I tried sending you a PM to thank you for making this post. But you have exceeded your PM limits!!!! You'll need to delete some PMs in your box if you want to receive others. In any event, good post and I hope this inspires others to kick off more thought provoking discussions.

Lloyd

[MasterE569]

In regards to overpair I have a little post it on my laptop that says simply overpairs are just a pair. This helps me remember how truly weak this hand is in the entire spectrum of winning hands. If you can throw away pocket aces when needed I feel your on your way to being a better player.

[iMsoLucky0]

I just want to add that these concepts are spot on and that not very many people understand them. And even of the ones that do understand this, even less of them can implement it properly.

This concept of getting to a showdown cheaply is one that you very rarely find discussed anywhere but is very key to playing deep stacked tournaments.

You really hit on some major problems that some players have.

[Beachman42]

MLG,

I recently played my first deeper (3K vs. 1500) on-line MTT and from this huge sample size, I noticed far more limping/minraises vs. the standard 3X-5XBB raises.

My question, does this have more to do with pot control or is it more common when 1-2 BB is <3% of the avg stack? It was a painful lesson to learn that AA-QQ was still a likely holding from an LP small raiser.