stars 20/180. flopped two pair gets counterfeited on river.

[Rickyroodido]

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because i flopped two pair? doesn't 'with air' mean that i'm basically making those moves with no showdown value?

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Yea it would be an aggressive move which should make all villians scared, but since this is a 20+2 I think its EV+
Someone will almost always call and you can push a nonflush turn (even the ones who counterfeit you, since your headsup against a likely draw).

With your line any turn is scary and makes it difficult to play with confidence. Not that its bad, just unnececary in a game where you have to drive someone over with a tractor to make him fold.

[sweet wicking action]

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because i flopped two pair? doesn't 'with air' mean that i'm basically making those moves with no showdown value?

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Yea it would be an aggressive move which should make all villians scared, but since this is a 20+2 I think its EV+
Someone will almost always call and you can push a nonflush turn (even the ones who counterfeit you, since your headsup against a likely draw).

With your line any turn is scary and makes it difficult to play with confidence. Not that its bad, just unnececary in a game where you have to drive someone over with a tractor to make him fold.

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i still don't see how your suggested line is superior to the one that i took. i have no reason to believe that anyone will lead the flop if i don't. i would have bet/3bet the turn, but i wasn't raised. and you think i should have pushed the river? or CR/push? I'm totally lost. After I got flat-called in two places, I have to believe the 6 has counterfeited my hand. Please elaborate on your thinking.

[Art Vandelay]

Crappy river, you can't overcall here.

I like the way it was played up to that point. You charged the villians a good price and got unlucky.

[Rickyroodido]

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i still don't see how your suggested line is superior to the one that i took. i have no reason to believe that anyone will lead the flop if i don't. i would have bet/3bet the turn, but i wasn't raised. and you think i should have pushed the river? or CR/push? I'm totally lost. After I got flat-called in two places, I have to believe the 6 has counterfeited my hand. Please elaborate on your thinking.

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Well my suggestion was to checkraise the flop. But if you think its very likely to get checked around a lead is obviously superior.
The reason I like a checkraise is because it would get us headsup. I hate to defend a weak 2pair out of position against many callers. Ofcourse I realise that we want to make some chips with this hand so I guess it depends on 2 things (if a cr is good or not):
1. how likely somebody is to bet after us, and
2. how likely that a checkraise would get called by a drawing hand

In my experience its actually hard to find a line which would make somebody fold in a 20/180 S&G, and thats why I think the powerdemonstrations (checkraising in a multiway pot) are kind of an alternativ to a potsized bet in a sane pokergame.

... and I think you should fold the river. I replied, to someone who suggested a push, that it was tempting but probably wrong.

[sweet wicking action]

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Someone will almost always call and you can push a nonflush turn (even the ones who counterfeit you, since your headsup against a likely draw).

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so, you only push if it is headsup?

also, i agree that it can be hard to make people fold in these tournaments. but i'm not looking to cause that fold until the river. am i?

[Rickyroodido]

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Someone will almost always call and you can push a nonflush turn (even the ones who counterfeit you, since your headsup against a likely draw).

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so, you only push if it is headsup?

also, i agree that it can be hard to make people fold in these tournaments. but i'm not looking to cause that fold until the river. am i?

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Okay I guess a checkraise loses some value even in a loose game. But alot of the times, not only when you get counterfeited, you will be lost when playing this hand against multiple villians.

And I could but dont really enjoy pushing this hand in a multiway pott on the turn/river streets.

[sweet wicking action]

i dont enjoy pushing either. and i dont know what you mean by 'lost'.

[Rickyroodido]

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i dont enjoy pushing either. and i dont know what you mean by 'lost'.

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I mean that it would be unclear where you stand; if your hand is good or not. I guess you would be able to judge this, atleast to a certain degree, by observing the villians behavior. But I think it could be hard to match your equity, which is good, to your expectations with your line.

However I guess it comes down to how well your able to play poker postflop. If the opposition is very weakpassiv I would take your line, otherwise I wont be able to represent the equity.