Lets talk socialism for a change

[Riddick]

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The Nazis were not socialists by any standard definition of that word.

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Gotcha. The 25 points of the National Socialists platform, including nationalization of the means of production, was in no way shape or form socialism. Thanks for correcting me.

[DVaut1]

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*A Socialist government cannot fix its own problems because it cannot possibly allow itself to shrink, and hence solve its own problems

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(3) The third point assumes that fixing problems must involve shrinking government. This maybe be true in the AC cyber fantasyland, but here in the real world we have a slightly more nuanced perspective that allows for the possibility that all problems may not simply require us to retrench the state.

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The third point is merely circular logic at its worst.

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Exactly my point. Government causes or proliferates problems and then tries to fix them, only further causing and proliferating problems.

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No, I meant YOUR point was circular logic, because it's based on the premise that bigger governments (whatever that means) cause "problems" (which again is just some vacuous proclamation that carries absolutely no meaning -- yes, I don't doubt bigger government do "cause" problems, which doesn't prove that they're less desirable, just, moral, etc. than smaller governments).

In other words,

"A Socialist government cannot fix its own problems --> because it cannot possibly allow itself to shrink --> hence solve its own problems"

...is just some inane argument that relies on its proposition to prove its claim. I’m not sure why sam h even bothered getting into “nuance”. It’s not that he’s wrong, it’s just that “Point 3” of your argument didn’t need any debunking since you didn’t prove it anyway, anymore than when I say “Suppose Riddick wears purple, and only gay people wear purple – therefore Riddick must be gay” is completely sound logic but does nothing to prove whether or not you're gay.

[Riddick]

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It is demonstrably untrue that socialist policies have eliminated a sense of nationality and heritage. Look at Russia or much of Eastern Europe. These are highly nationalistic countries with rich heritages.


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Gotcha. So when centralized socialist policies consume entire nations and prevent them from directing any sort of internal affairs, and renames them the Soviet Bloc, or simply considers them territory of Nazi Germany, this is actually thriving nationalism. Thanks for correcting me.

[Riddick]

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The third point assumes that fixing problems must involve shrinking government. This maybe be true in the AC cyber fantasyland, but here in the real world we have a slightly more nuanced perspective that allows for the possibility that all problems may not simply require us to retrench the state.

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Gotcha. Problems are solved by expanding government. So when the US has its hands caught in every cookie jar in the world, and as a result it gets planes flown into its buildings in NYC, the solution to the problem is to expand and tighten its grip on every cookie jar in the world. Makes sense.

[DVaut1]

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The Nazis were not socialists by any standard definition of that word.

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Gotcha. The 25 points of the National Socialists platform, including nationalization of the means of production, was in no way shape or form socialism. Thanks for correcting me.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Program

"Ten of the twenty-five points are clearly pro-labor. "The program championed the right to employment and called for the institution of profit sharing, confiscation of war profits, prosecution of userers and profiteers, nationalization of trusts, communalization of department stores, extension of the old-age pension system, creation of a national education program of all classes, prohibition of child labor, and an end to the dominance of investment capital." (4) This was an important part of the party's propaganda campaign, since it raised their support among the working class, by making the party appear to have, in William Brustein's words, a "working-class orientation". However, Hitler was careful to also make it clear that "the NSDAP stands on the platform of private ownership"."

In other news, Hitler was a propagandist.

[sam h]

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The Nazis were not socialists by any standard definition of that word.

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Gotcha. The 25 points of the National Socialists platform, including nationalization of the means of production, was in no way shape or form socialism. Thanks for correcting me.

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Nationalizing the "means of production" was not a part of the Nazi project. They did take control of certain industries, although not the biggest ones and in total a small portion of the economy, but only because from the day Hitler was elected Reich Chancellor he was preparing the country for a European land war. States of all ideological stripes often take control of production in many sectors when on a war-time footing.

The ideological thrust of Nazism was profoundly anti-Marxist. The communists and social democrats were the biggest enemies of the Nazis, and Hitler's Weimar-era rhetoric focused much more on the threat from the left than on the threat of Jews. Sorry, but these are just the facts. I don't know how I can explain more clearly to you that none of this is contested by anybody who seriously studies interwar Germany or who really knows anything about Nazism.

[nicky g]

"Socialists killed the Jews because the Jews didn't fit in with their democratically elected central plan"

People killed 6 millions Jews. Therefore all people are bad.

If you want to call the Nazis socialists, go ahead. But they virulently hated any form of socialism other than their own national "socialism", they condemned and murdered socialists, and the vast vast majority of self-identified socialists are opponents of Nazi ideology.

Your quote from the Spanish newspaper, if it was as approving as I assume it is, strongly inclines me to call you a disgusting racial superiorist piece of sh1t.

[tehox]

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"Socialists killed the Jews because the Jews didn't fit in with their democratically elected central plan"

People killed 6 millions Jews. Therefore all people are bad.

If you want to call the Nazis socialists, go ahead. But they virulently hated any form of socialism other than their own national "socialism", they condemned and murdered socialists, and the vast vast majority of self-identified socialists are opponents of Nazi ideology.

Your quote from the Spanish newspaper, if it was as approving as I assume it is, strongly inclines me to call you a disgusting racial superiorist piece of sh1t.

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Yeah to say that the Holocaust was caused by socialist idealogy is the most retarded thing I've heard in my brief visit to the Politics forum.

[Riddick]

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"Socialists killed the Jews because the Jews didn't fit in with their democratically elected central plan"

People killed 6 millions Jews. Therefore all people are bad.

If you want to call the Nazis socialists, go ahead. But they virulently hated any form of socialism other than their own national "socialism", they condemned and murdered socialists, and the vast vast majority of self-identified socialists are opponents of Nazi ideology.

Your quote from the Spanish newspaper, if it was as approving as I assume it is, strongly inclines me to call you a disgusting racial superiorist piece of sh1t.

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Yeah to say that the Holocaust was caused by socialist idealogy is the most retarded thing I've heard in my brief visit to the Politics forum.

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You must have missed the True or False:

Simply indicate whether its true or false and why you this it is so.

[Riddick]

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Nationalizing the "means of production" was not a part of the Nazi project. They did take control of certain industries,

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Whoa whoa whoa, this is where I stopped reading.

A is not in any way, shape, or form B, but sometimes A is B...???