Small Blind with KK as Overpair

[ptmusic]

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I agree with everyone else in re raising more preflop especially being OOP. If he still calls you have a better idea of his range. I think there are a number of hands that villain could have here that hero can beat. 89, AT, JJ, QQ. Perhaps 88 or 99. But TT, 77 or 33 are equally as likely as well.

Its close and its very read dependant. You don't have any stats but given that the guy mini raised PF OTB I'm inclined to think he isn't very good and has AT here a good amount of time. Therefore I push. Against a TAG player who put in a standard raise on the button I can find a fold here much more often.

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I like this line of thinking (except for the increase in pf raise as I mentioned in the previous post).

Here's some more action:

Party Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
10 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $100
UTG+1: $14.85
UTG+2: $97.45
MP1: $47.85
MP2: $164.25
MP3: $37
CO: $150.90
Button: $80.15
Hero: $106.65
BB: $63.20

Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is SB with :kh :kd
3 folds, MP1 calls $1, 3 folds, <font color="red">Button raises to $2</font>, <font color="red"> Hero raises to $5</font>, BB folds, MP1 calls $4, Button calls $3.

Flop: :3d :ts :7h ($16, 3 players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $12</font>, MP1 folds, <font color="red">Button raises to $24</font>, Hero calls $12.

Turn: :4s ($64, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">Button bets $30</font>, Hero?

[Ness]

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You suggest a raise to at least $8? I think that's a sure fire way to minimize EV in the long run with KK. I'd rather keep the min-raising guy in, who is probably a bad player, and take the pot down on the flop.

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FWIW, oop with a minraise and a limper, I would make it 12 from teh BB.

By simply raising from the BB you are representing a big pair in the eyes of most players. Even the minraising tard knows what you have most of the time.

I salivate at the prospect of playing a hand in position against a big hand in this scenario. Its a cheap chance to take down a big pot. If i was the minraiser, I would likely call you with any two cards.

you need to punish people for trying to take flops against your big hands OOP. "das no limit baby."

You are going to lead the pot for a flop size bet no matter what, the bigger the pot the bigger your bet and the more pressure you are putting on your opponent.

rgrds,

ness

sry for rambling.

[ptmusic]

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You suggest a raise to at least $8? I think that's a sure fire way to minimize EV in the long run with KK. I'd rather keep the min-raising guy in, who is probably a bad player, and take the pot down on the flop.

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FWIW, oop with a minraise and a limper, I would make it 12 from teh BB.

By simply raising from the BB you are representing a big pair in the eyes of most players. Even the minraising tard knows what you have most of the time.

I salivate at the prospect of playing a hand in position against a big hand in this scenario. Its a cheap chance to take down a big pot. If i was the minraiser, I would likely call you with any two cards.

you need to punish people for trying to take flops against your big hands OOP. "das no limit baby."

You are going to lead the pot for a flop size bet no matter what, the bigger the pot the bigger your bet and the more pressure you are putting on your opponent.

rgrds,

ness

sry for rambling.

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I was in the SB, not BB, but anyway...

So I risk $11.50, and if everyone folds to my RR pf, I've won only $4.50. If someone calls, I'm still OOP and the pot is now getting huge, with VERY little chance of me hitting a monster on the flop, and little info on villain. So then on the flop I would make a $25 bet, and do what if villain calls or raises that??

With the huge RR line, I'm in the same spot as the hand I've posted, except I've managed to build a very big pot without a very big hand.

[Roadstar]

I'm surprised you don't see the logic:

1) you're OOP, at a disadvantage post flop to villain

2) implied odds, an opponent with a small pocket pair will flop a set 1 out of 6 times (approx) and will proceed to stack you, you want it to be expensive for them to do this.

Minraising is a sure fire way to minimize YOUR EV in the long run with KK. You're offering your villains potentially $100 for $3 or $4 to see the flop. If they miss they fold and lose $3 or $4 more, if they hit you're in a tough position.

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Thanks for the converter tip.

As for the pf raise, I'm surprised so many advocate a stronger raise. My raise to $5 was a pot-size raise (pot before my action was $4.50, which was the size of my raise). In my experience, anything more than $6 here would get zero callers more than half the time.

You suggest a raise to at least $8? I think that's a sure fire way to minimize EV in the long run with KK. I'd rather keep the min-raising guy in, who is probably a bad player, and take the pot down on the flop.

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[Dave I]

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As for the pf raise, I'm surprised so many advocate a stronger raise. My raise to $5 was a pot-size raise (pot before my action was $4.50, which was the size of my raise).

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No, your raise was pratically a min-raise. A pot sized raise would the size of the pot in addition to what is needed to call. $2 to call makes pot $6.50. So technically a raise to $8.50 would be pot-sized.

That said, I either flat call if you want to play "tricky" or raise to about $8.

[Ness]

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So I risk $11.50, and if everyone folds to my RR pf, I've won only $4.50.

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That'll work. Do you win a lot of hug pots OOP with big pairs?


Its difficult to explain this without suggesting you aren't understanding some simple concepts here.

You should be happy to either get in all in preflop here or take it down preflop.

As I said, raising from the BB (unless you have established an image as a donk), inherently defines your hand, to even the most dimwitted players.

If I raise with 67s on from the CO and you make that little girl raise from the blinds, do you think i am folding?

No way, muchacho. You have a defined hand OOP and i have a beautiful hand to win a gigantic pot from you. If you raise enough, crushing my odds you have effectively forced me to make a significant preflop error if i decide to gamble.

Unless someone overplays a tptk hand or a lesser overpair on a ragged flop, you probably aren't going to win a big pot anyway.

Supersystem offers some very good advice on how to play these hands.

regards,

ness

[ptmusic]

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I'm surprised you don't see the logic:

1) you're OOP, at a disadvantage post flop to villain

2) implied odds, an opponent with a small pocket pair will flop a set 1 out of 6 times (approx) and will proceed to stack you, you want it to be expensive for them to do this.

Minraising is a sure fire way to minimize YOUR EV in the long run with KK. You're offering your villains potentially $100 for $3 or $4 to see the flop. If they miss they fold and lose $3 or $4 more, if they hit you're in a tough position.

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What would you suggest reraising to preflop?

Yes I see your logic. But consider the following: Do you want villain to fold preflop--that's weak. Do you want villain to call? If he calls, even if he calls a large reraise, he is still getting correct implied odds if he is able to stack me.

In my opinion, it's better to get more $ in the pot preflop, while making sure you get at least one caller. Now, as I said, in hindsight, I probably could have raised to $6 and achieved this goal. But nearly every time I reraise more than $6 in $.50/$1 full-ring NL, everyone folds (unless someone has a monster).

By the way, flopping a set or better is only 11.8%, or 7.5:1 against, or only 1 in 8.5 times. And I didn't minraise (granted I only raise a bit more than minraising).

[Ness]

PT,


Are you a lhe convert?

rgrds,

ness

[Roadstar]

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What would you suggest reraising to preflop?

$7-$8 because you got two guys there.

Yes I see your logic. But consider the following: Do you want villain to fold preflop--that's weak. Do you want villain to call? If he calls, even if he calls a large reraise, he is still getting correct implied odds if he is able to stack me.

I want villain to make as much of a mistake as possible or make a decision that is the least correct. Reraising bigger makes it more likely villain makes a mistake by calling (unless he has PP). How do you know he is still getting correct implied odds? You have to put villain on a range of hands so say AJo+, ATs+, KQs, 22+. By the reraise you're giving a chance for villain to make a mistake by calling AJo to catch and minimizing the implied odds you're offering to 22+.

In my opinion, it's better to get more $ in the pot preflop, while making sure you get at least one caller. Now, as I said, in hindsight, I probably could have raised to $6 and achieved this goal. But nearly every time I reraise more than $6 in $.50/$1 full-ring NL, everyone folds (unless someone has a monster).

What is with this at least one caller? You haven't put them on ranges. If they both have AK you want them to call. If they both have a small PP you want neither to call. Since you don't know which is which you just have to put a raise that gets a good equilibrium in getting villain to make a mistake while minimizing implied odds if they do have PP.

By the way, flopping a set or better is only 11.8%, or 7.5:1 against, or only 1 in 8.5 times. And I didn't minraise (granted I only raise a bit more than minraising).

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Yes you're right.

[Roadstar]

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What would you suggest reraising to preflop?

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$7-$8 because you got two guys there.

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Yes I see your logic. But consider the following: Do you want villain to fold preflop--that's weak. Do you want villain to call? If he calls, even if he calls a large reraise, he is still getting correct implied odds if he is able to stack me.

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I want villain to make as much of a mistake as possible or make a decision that is the least correct. Reraising bigger makes it more likely villain makes a mistake by calling (unless he has PP). How do you know he is still getting correct implied odds? You have to put villain on a range of hands so say AJo+, ATs+, KQs, 22+. By the reraise you're giving a chance for villain to make a mistake by calling AJo to catch and minimizing the implied odds you're offering to 22+.

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In my opinion, it's better to get more $ in the pot preflop, while making sure you get at least one caller. Now, as I said, in hindsight, I probably could have raised to $6 and achieved this goal. But nearly every time I reraise more than $6 in $.50/$1 full-ring NL, everyone folds (unless someone has a monster).

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What is with this at least one caller? You haven't put them on ranges. If they both have AK you want them to call. If they both have a small PP you want neither to call. Since you don't know which is which you just have to put a raise that gets a good equilibrium in getting villain to make a mistake while minimizing implied odds if they do have PP.

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By the way, flopping a set or better is only 11.8%, or 7.5:1 against, or only 1 in 8.5 times. And I didn't minraise (granted I only raise a bit more than minraising).

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Yes you're right.