KJs hand I wasn't happy with

[baronzeus]

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very good analysis.

i checkraised here and folded to a 3bet. I felt empty afterwards [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img].

About the turn, I am not sure I like folding here as much because it is possible he is semi bluffing or something (although he is unknown) or maybe even freeshowdowning QQ + a spade or something.
Anyone agree?


Edit; Oh, also, you are forgetting another KJ in your analysis. Still don't think he has it often enough to call for chop here.

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while i did forget KJ (i actually gave him the benefit of the doubt that he wouldn't 3 bet that pf) i dont think he 3 bets the river with it either. the 3 bet is vvv strong here and in no way expects a fold.

Barron

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I agree that he probably doesn't 3bet the river here. But wtf, you don't 3bet preflop with KJ?

[PokerBob]

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you are going to fold top 2 heads up for one more bet? Yeah if he 3 bets you are most likely beat but unless you are 100% sure you are beat then i can't fold this....pay him off.... just my 2 cents.

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if you get 3bet here you are good just about never. that said, i hate folding for one more bet on the river, so i think i'd just bet/call.

[DcifrThs]

yea sorry, didn't see how late position you were in. KJo though is at the very very very bottom of that range though. and you wouldn't lose much if you were him folding it to your CO open. it really depends on what the blinds are like and how that affects your range from the CO.

by your reaction though it seems KJo is a clear and always 3bet. from the notes i have assuming villian opens from the CO and has a pf raise of 12% KJo is a clear fold for me.

Barron

[DcifrThs]

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you are going to fold top 2 heads up for one more bet? Yeah if he 3 bets you are most likely beat but unless you are 100% sure you are beat then i can't fold this....pay him off.... just my 2 cents.

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if you get 3bet here you are good just about never. that said, i hate folding for one more bet on the river, so i think i'd just bet/call.

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bet call earns less b/c you never get 2 bets when he has AA/AK but always pay 2 bets when you're behind.

Barron

[DcifrThs]

there was a thread i dont remember the name of where i did one of these full out analyses breaking down the river.

the conclusion i came to was that IF you can fold to a 3bet, c'r/fold is the best line by a decent margin. paying off the 3 bet, even occasionally though, makes check call the best line. bet/call is 3rd best with rational assumptions because you always end up paying 2 bets when behind and never get 2 bets in when ahead.

Barron

[baronzeus]

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there was a thread i dont remember the name of where i did one of these full out analyses breaking down the river.

the conclusion i came to was that IF you can fold to a 3bet, c'r/fold is the best line by a decent margin. paying off the 3 bet, even occasionally though, makes check call the best line. bet/call is 3rd best with rational assumptions because you always end up paying 2 bets when behind and never get 2 bets in when ahead.

Barron

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Bet/call might be slightly better than we think in THIS case because he is (at least some portion of the time) because he is freeshowdowning some % of the time on the turn.

[baronzeus]

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yea sorry, didn't see how late position you were in. KJo though is at the very very very bottom of that range though. and you wouldn't lose much if you were him folding it to your CO open. it really depends on what the blinds are like and how that affects your range from the CO.

by your reaction though it seems KJo is a clear and always 3bet. from the notes i have assuming villian opens from the CO and has a pf raise of 12% KJo is a clear fold for me.

Barron

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Man, if KJo is even close to a fold, I really, really, really need to rethink my LP 3betting standards.

[DcifrThs]

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yea sorry, didn't see how late position you were in. KJo though is at the very very very bottom of that range though. and you wouldn't lose much if you were him folding it to your CO open. it really depends on what the blinds are like and how that affects your range from the CO.

by your reaction though it seems KJo is a clear and always 3bet. from the notes i have assuming villian opens from the CO and has a pf raise of 12% KJo is a clear fold for me.

Barron

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Man, if KJo is even close to a fold, I really, really, really need to rethink my LP 3betting standards.

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you're running hot though so why do that?

Barron

[baronzeus]

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yea sorry, didn't see how late position you were in. KJo though is at the very very very bottom of that range though. and you wouldn't lose much if you were him folding it to your CO open. it really depends on what the blinds are like and how that affects your range from the CO.

by your reaction though it seems KJo is a clear and always 3bet. from the notes i have assuming villian opens from the CO and has a pf raise of 12% KJo is a clear fold for me.

Barron

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Man, if KJo is even close to a fold, I really, really, really need to rethink my LP 3betting standards.

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you're running hot though so why do that?

Barron

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rofl dont eeeeeeeeeeven go there.

[PokerBob]

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you are going to fold top 2 heads up for one more bet? Yeah if he 3 bets you are most likely beat but unless you are 100% sure you are beat then i can't fold this....pay him off.... just my 2 cents.

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if you get 3bet here you are good just about never. that said, i hate folding for one more bet on the river, so i think i'd just bet/call.

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bet call earns less b/c you never get 2 bets when he has AA/AK but always pay 2 bets when you're behind.



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i agree, but if you can't fold to the 3bet it's gotta be less -EV, right?