QQ 3 bet pot deep

[matrix]

that depends on who shoves.

if button shoves no. if MP shoves and button folds I'd probably call.

and I think I'd punch it up to ~$20. not $25.

[whyzze]

[ QUOTE ]
They were pretty bad as I got my stack somehow. This may be an obvious question but I will ask it anyway. Assuming I 4 bet pf to like 25 or so, I am calling a shove right?

[/ QUOTE ]

make it 18, call a shove from either and its not even close.

[Profish2285]

Wait now Im really confused. First of all isnt 4 bet/folding very spewy and should never be done? I thought that was 2+2 dogma. Also, shouldnt I be more concerned about MP shoving instead of BTN?

[billip62]

4 betting and folding is only really possible when you can put the villian on AA or KK (obv) and that's hard to do accurately against the guy in MP. The button's deeper stack in my mind gives you the additional information and a better pot odds agrument for folding.

honestly, I think the 4 bet here is essential for information, but I'm going broke on that flop if I see it.

[Profish2285]

Okay I understand that btn is deeper, but its only a matter of 30 extra bb's. I would think a shove from MP would rep the most strength as he would have gotten 3 bet from villain, 4 bet from me, and then still shoves into both of us. That looks alot stronger to me than MP folding and BTN shoving.

[whyzze]

[ QUOTE ]
Okay I understand that btn is deeper, but its only a matter of 30 extra bb's. I would think a shove from MP would rep the most strength as he would have gotten 3 bet from villain, 4 bet from me, and then still shoves into both of us. That looks alot stronger to me than MP folding and BTN shoving.

[/ QUOTE ]


exactly...you will be >50% against button, his range is JJ+/AK, occasionally TT and rarely AQ.

againts MP, you will be a slight dog, but after the 4bet you have odds to call.

[Profish2285]

So pretty much I have to 4 bet pre against these guys and have to get it in after that no matter what? Sorry if this is noob-ish Im just so used to the mind set of QQ all in pf is bad.

[whyzze]

yes.

QQ aipf is usually a good thing. AK/JJ begin to get marginal.

edit: unless you're a nit.

[billip62]

I don't like playing QQ allin pre. I hate it.

Comparing the choices:

4 betting preflop -> pot is HU 100% of the time
-hand ranges narrow to say 25% AK, 30% AA, 30% KK, maybe JJ 5%, 10% other garbage
flatting preflop ->multiway pot say 60% of the time
-hand ranges for MP probably most pp say 66+, AK, AQs and if he's loose probably even some suited connectors.
-hand ranges for BTN probably 1010+, AK, AQ.

If someone could bust out pokerstove for some equity calculations I think it would be really useful