Post Flop Play - Passive Better Than Aggressive...discuss

[Acevader]

[ QUOTE ]
This is why you must pray to the Gods of position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whilst obviously it helps it doesn't change much. I'm rapidly become quite passive on the turn because I check behind with a lot of unimproved and marginal hands to either a) hopefully hit showdown value or, in the case of a marginal hand to b) show it down/induce bluff.

Assuming you raised preflop and have position and assuming villain limp called and is a total unknown whom you have no stats on. You have 1010 and flop is Ks,Js,5h and villain check-called and checked 3d turn. Who bets turn? Who checks turn? Who intends in either of the above actions to call a river bet or make a river bet?

[Acevader]

FWIW my aggression factors are as follow (NL$200 FR)

PF: 1.45
Flop: 3.32
Turn: 1.86
River: 1.46
Total: 1.74

VPIP is about 16, PFR about 9 and Went to SD about 21% so it's not like I'm crazy lag and showing down many hands.

I'm still not fully comfortable with my game. Something is wrong post flop but I can't put my finger on it. My instincts are telling me to become more passive yet most good regulars are more aggressive on all streets than me it seems. I just don't know how they get away with it since I get called or re-raised when I start firing away willy nilly or bluffing more.

[Smart Money]

[ QUOTE ]

For a real example I had the exact sort of scenario against Narena (smart poker) today.

Multi-limp and I'm in BB with K10 and check. Flop K,J,rag and I fire pot. Narena calls. Turn J. A potential trouble card so I go into check-call. Narena bets about half pot and I call. River 10 and I check, he bets just over half (from memory) and I call and pay off AJ. This is the risk - he maximized because I went into check-call.

[/ QUOTE ]


My flop call was more of a float with position here. I just got lucky that the turn brought a jack.

I think folding the turn is probably the best choice here- even though I still would have bet the turn even if I didn't improve (with you leading.)

Position is just so important and so playing passively OOP does have it's merits.

[ActionStan]

I'm having a little bit of a hard time following what you're asking, but my impression is that you're saying aggression and giving examples of position and pot control with marginal hands.

I don't know how SABRE upped his aggression rate, but it may have come from a bunch of factors. Betting and raising more will increase your aggression factor. Check/folding more and cold calling less in position with marginal hands also increases your aggression factor. Making better choices in small pots OOP by folding shows up in your stats as being more aggressive. There is both a betting and folding component to aggression factor.

So to your examples, it probably isn't a particularly good idea to regularly fire multiple times OOP with second pair. You may be better off check/folding in those smaller pots as opposed to check/calling. Giving up in a small pot OOP is much better than creating a big pot and being faced with a tough decision later. Yes, you sometimes lay down the best hand, but that is the price of position. Build the rest of your game around putting other people on tough decisions in position and you will make that back. Sometimes you may want to check/call with a bluff happy fellow, but mostly you should refuse to play medium to big sized pots OOP with marginal hands. One thing you may want to look at is how you attack from position? Are you limping along on the button with drawing hands? Smooth calling your draws in position? Don't disrespect the button by limping with crappy suited connectors. Raise and attack from the high ground. Put other people to tough decisions with dicey second pair hands. Make them decide if they want to call a big bet on the end when their second pair is now third pair. Put them under your heel and grind.

When you have second pair like the TT hand, checking behind and inducing a bet or checking it down are perfectly reasonable choices. It isn't less aggressive because you aren't betting, it's using position to size the pot to the strength of your hand.

[D_Lonnigan]

Great post Stan!

[Landlord79]

[ QUOTE ]
Great post Stan!

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it made this post worth reading. Thanks for the rescue of this thread.

[Foldem78]

[ QUOTE ]
My winrate improved dramatically when I increased my AF by 50%. Take it fwiw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Same here..

I think you are underestimating how much more $$ you'll win with sheer aggression.

and what stan said.

[Acevader]

Oh, threads back!

I'm aggressive as hell with the BTN. If facing a marginal decision between limping along and raising the CO/BTN to take control over the limpers I take the later route probably 75% of the time. But in poker you can't help but be OOP a fair proportion of the time. If I get AK or 1010 in an EP I'm still going to raise and chances are someone between me and the BTN will call.

Today I tried firing 2nd barrels a little more with mixed results. Sometimes villain would fold but often they would call down. No idea yet if it was a more successful strategy.

Mike, curious as to why you'd float me in an unraised pot multiway. There aren't many/any hands that I'd bet out multiway in an unraised pot and then shut up shop unless a very scary turn card came (such as this case). With a very weak king here I'd usually check/fold (reverse implied odds) and with the K10 I had I'd fire a second round if only called in one spot and the turn was safe.

[Smart Money]

[ QUOTE ]

Mike, curious as to why you'd float me in an unraised pot multiway. There aren't many/any hands that I'd bet out multiway in an unraised pot and then shut up shop unless a very scary turn card came (such as this case). With a very weak king here I'd usually check/fold (reverse implied odds) and with the K10 I had I'd fire a second round if only called in one spot and the turn was safe.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK- perhaps "loose call" would be a better description than a float!! (You know how it is playing so many tables- there's occasionally the odd dubious decision!) However, and I may be recalling this wrongly, but I thought the flop bet wasn't that strong- maybe 1/2 pot!?

[Smart Money]

OK, I found the hand.

It was only three way, so the flop call is fine I think. I couldn't tell you my exact thoughts at the time but I was probably thinking I could use position to win the hand even if I didn't improve. So it was probably a mixture of loose call/float/advanced thinking(!!) [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

My limping w/AJo UTG+1 8-handed isn't text book; probably better to fold or raise- although it does mix my game up a little. (If you only limp here with small/mid pairs then a decent, observant player would never pay off your sets.)


Full Tilt Poker, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
LeggoPoker Hand History Converter

MP2: $29
CO: $110.80
BTN: $264.05
SB: $206.20
BB: $203
UTG: $235.10
Hero (UTG+1): $203
MP1: $286.15

Pre-Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (UTG+1)
UTG folds, Hero calls $2, 2 folds, CO calls $2, 2 folds, BB checks

Flop: ($7) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 Players)
<font color="red">BB bets $5</font>, Hero calls $5, CO folds

Turn: ($17) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
BB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $10</font>, BB calls $10

River: ($37) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
BB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $20</font>, BB calls $20

Results: $77 Pot ($3 Rake)
BB mucked T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (two pair, Kings and Jacks) and LOST (-$37 NET)
Hero showed J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (three of a kind, Jacks) and WON $74 (+$37 NET)