River action vs Steve Giufre

[The DaveR]

[ QUOTE ]
I have never played with Steve, but I'd value bet this. He almost has to pay you off with anything that can beat ace high.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

[Nate tha\\\' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
Did you consider 3-betting the flop or raising the turn? Both are better than the line you took IMO.

Regards

[/ QUOTE ]

Yesyesyesyesyes. That's why Ikke has a high value/posts ratio. Failing to play back at him on the earlier streets is IMO a much bigger mistake than whatever action you take on the river.

[Guy McSucker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Did you consider 3-betting the flop or raising the turn? Both are better than the line you took IMO.

Regards

[/ QUOTE ]

Yesyesyesyesyes. That's why Ikke has a high value/posts ratio. Failing to play back at him on the earlier streets is IMO a much bigger mistake than whatever action you take on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

anyone care to elaborate on this for the brain-dead among us? (i.e. me)

Guy.

[HiatusOver]

Ikke,

I agree that 3-betting the flop or raising the turn is probably better than the line he took. My concern is that sometimes steve will play a draw or a hand linke 65 fast and then we fold the best hand somewhere along the line.

Could u explain what benefits we get from 3-betting the flop or raising the turn that overcome folding the best hand every once in a while? Are u sure they are there? I struggle with this a lot online because people play hands so whacky and taking non showdown lines scares me sometimes.

[The DaveR]

Flop is draw heavy and low. Steve could easily be blasting a draw or air to get hands like KJ/KQ out.

[Nate tha\\\' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
Ikke,

I agree that 3-betting the flop or raising the turn is probably better than the line he took. My concern is that sometimes steve will play a draw or a hand linke 65 fast and then we fold the best hand somewhere along the line.

Could u explain what benefits we get from 3-betting the flop or raising the turn that overcome folding the best hand every once in a while? Are u sure they are there? I struggle with this a lot online because people play hands so whacky and taking non showdown lines scares me sometimes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who says we can't raise somewhere along the line *and* see a showdown? This is a 100/200 shorthanded game against an opponent who has some tricky in him.

btw, in this particular spot I prefer usually waiting until the turn, since if I don't like the card that comes off I can just default into calldown mode.

[GoblinMason (Craig)]

Yeah, I'd bet the river. What about when he c/r's? (I know I'd pay him off.)

-Craig

[Surf]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I'd bet the river. What about when he c/r's? (I know I'd pay him off.)

-Craig

[/ QUOTE ]

Fold, IMO. But that's what I do best it seems [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Surf

[Ikke]

Lets only consider 3-betting the flop here, since a lot of the reasons for raising the turn are similar (though not all), and I slightly prefer that course of action (although it’s dependend on gamestyle).

If your opponent has a hand that he will not play back with, but is worth to go to showdown with, then 3-betting the flop clearly is better, since you will safe money when behind and extract more when in front (ofcourse depending on sound judgement, but that should be the case more often than not since you have position). Also note that if you are behind you can make more if you hit your outs.

Now lets review the hand and do some handreading. You open-raised from the button, and the BB (good player) is the only caller. The flop comes low/medium cards and is draw heavy. The BB will, and should, check-raise a lot here, since it likely missed you, while he can certainly represent a hand that has hit some kind of pair convincingly (since he will call with lots of hands out of the BB, and might 3-bet some portion of better hands). Also, due to your wide range of hands, you often will be forced to fold somewhere (hands like QJ, JT etc). And, calling down ace high hands will be quite difficult for you depending on which cards will hit. So, check-raising a wide range of hands here is a sound strategy for the BB, and I’m quite sure Steve knows this. Therefore, you should do a fair share of 3-betting anyways to discourage him to use this strategy in the future. Now, you even have an excellent hand to do it with, since it’s easier and more profitable to play it that way against his assumed range of hands. Note that you are intending to see a showdown.

Now the BB will, after you 3-bet, be presented with a more difficult decision since he’s out of position. I think he will 4-bet a pair of 8’s good-kicker (A, K) and better hands, and he could very well do it with a flushdraw or a 6 along with some pair. So still wide enough to profitable call down (although dependend on the cards to come).

But note that he will be in quite a tough spot, since your hand is not defined at all yet due to your position (you could have an overpair, some kind of draw, a smallish pair, pair+draw; heck, even A high!). But, again due to your position, ALL these hands are IMO likely to be played more profitable even if he 4-bets (since you can more cheaply get away from lesser hands, and extract more with your better hands). So, basically, it is probably in his best interest to not 4-bet lightly, since you then might misplay your weaker holdings. But if you are able to use your position to the best, this adds to your case even further.

I could go on for a while, since there is even more to it. This is an extremely important situation, which comes up in shorthanded hold’em a lot. But this should be a start what you should think about.

Regards

[kapw7]

Great analysis!
Can I be selfish and ask again the way OP played the hand, why is this a value bet. Are we ahead 50% (or 55 if you call a C-R) of times? Are we actually afraid of a C-R with a K-hand?