Overs w/a side of back door flush draw

[StrictlyStrategy]

This is live you can usually tell if he has the Ac or not. If I don't think he does I'll raise otherwise call.

[Niediam]

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Raise the flop (intending to check turn unless you make a pair). Passive MP is rarely going to three bet you and if he does you know your A/K outs are no good and can just fold (unless you have odds to draw to your backdoor stuff).

Call the turn.

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Here when you raise on the flop, the only benefit is the free card. With a strong draw, the benefits would be the free card + padding the pot with equity. I don't thing the free card alone is enough to go for a free card here, because a lot of the time, we won't get free card anyway.

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It's actually possible that we have decent equity here as having up to 8 or so outs is certainly possible. But the idea of raising is definately for a free card which will will get probably atleast 80% of the time.

[Yads]

call the river

[Hair_of_the_Dog]

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Raise the flop (intending to check turn unless you make a pair). Passive MP is rarely going to three bet you and if he does you know your A/K outs are no good and can just fold (unless you have odds to draw to your backdoor stuff).

Call the turn.

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Here when you raise on the flop, the only benefit is the free card. With a strong draw, the benefits would be the free card + padding the pot with equity. I don't thing the free card alone is enough to go for a free card here, because a lot of the time, we won't get free card anyway.

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It's actually possible that we have decent equity here as having up to 8 or so outs is certainly possible. But the idea of raising is definately for a free card which will will get probably atleast 80% of the time.

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My read on the table would make me think it would only be about 40% of the time. There is a lot of donk betting going on. The other thing is I'm not sure I would like to be 3bet if I did raise.

[John_Brian_K]

So you have 2 limp callers preflop
MP bets the action on the flop and is LP according to your description so i put him on the J here. Now if he were LAG he could be betting anything, but the passive part makes me believe he hit the flop pretty decent make Q-J or K-J

The TJ who you describe is TAG and just calls the bet so his range is not really defined yet IMO, but he is aggressive so IF he hit the board I would guess a raise from him. So he is drawing to something a straight chasing that small flush? 7-8s or 8-10s with diamonds maybe? Not sure maybe a small pair hoping to spike a set on the turn with odds to call.

CO playing alot that day which to me means he is mixing things up typical old guys who sit for that long start getting pissed at the hands they see win and will loosen up after this much time so I would be afraid of his flat call here. On 2 pair and not afraid of the flush taking his chances? Not real sure he could have a weak J. Something like J-5 or 9-8s maybe or K-rag hoping a non club King hits the turn.


Looking on to the turn and river now:
CO either had that small pair on the board or whiffed completely on the turn and is cutting his losses.

MP loose passive and bets the flush on the board I reevaluate and say he just hit his small flush because LP check folds here with a 3rd club on the turn unless he has something like A-J with the Ace being a club.

On the river:
MP checks for a check raise? More likely than not he had the J on the flop and never really improved unless you know him to check raise because even a LP player will check raise with the Ace of clubs here.

HJ now bets and probably was putting you guys on something you were afraid of because that is how it was played. I say he is bluffing the club with a small one hoping to push you guys out and take the pot with his small flush.

YOU: On that board it is an abvious call unless you know MP will check raise.

[jesse8888]

I call the river cause lots of stuff beats you. I call the turn, obviously. The flop is dependent on your table read; if you think the free card play is going to work almost always (and are fairly sure you won't get 3 bet), then you could try it. Without a strong read on the table though, calling the flop would be my default play. It turns your hand face up for observant opponents, but whatever....

[John_Brian_K]

Jesus we have some brilliant replies here. lol Does anyone think critically about the hand in question and answer based off the reads provided?

[KitCloudkicker]

i dont see whats so complicated about this hand

call flop

call turn

call river

next hand. no analysis required.

i think it was pokerbob who said that most hands in limit play themselves. dont make things harder than they have to be.

[Niediam]

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Raise the flop (intending to check turn unless you make a pair). Passive MP is rarely going to three bet you and if he does you know your A/K outs are no good and can just fold (unless you have odds to draw to your backdoor stuff).

Call the turn.

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Here when you raise on the flop, the only benefit is the free card. With a strong draw, the benefits would be the free card + padding the pot with equity. I don't thing the free card alone is enough to go for a free card here, because a lot of the time, we won't get free card anyway.

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It's actually possible that we have decent equity here as having up to 8 or so outs is certainly possible. But the idea of raising is definately for a free card which will will get probably atleast 80% of the time.

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My read on the table would make me think it would only be about 40% of the time. There is a lot of donk betting going on. The other thing is I'm not sure I would like to be 3bet if I did raise.

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Obviously it's fine not to raise for a free card when you have an abnormal table that makes it less likely that it will work.

But really I don't think that it's bad when a passive guy 3bets you... you can just fold. Must better than hitting your A/K on the turn and putting in a multiple bets when you are dead.

[jesse8888]

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Jesus we have some brilliant replies here. lol Does anyone think critically about the hand in question and answer based off the reads provided?

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Ok....I think it's a pretty freaking easy hand, but what the heck, I'll bite.

Flop: Have you seen this LP guy 3-bet the flop yet this session? Is he completely incapable of it (wouldn't do it with top pair, but would slow down with a set) or is it possible? If it's possible, I'd just call. Have you seen either other villain limp-3 bet a flop? If so, I just call. If you've never seen either, then I think the free card play might be an alright thing to do. If you raise, you're going to have a large pot on your hands on the turn, and most of the time you're still going to be standing there with your dick in your hand, along with a 3 flush and ace high. All in all, I like the call unless you are VERY sure you will get to see the river for free if you raise.

Turn: I don't see any debate here. A raise isn't going to win the hand, you can't beat anything, and you have as many as 15 outs (or as few as 0). I call, whether my opponents are Moe, Larry and Curly or Gus, Phil and Doyle.

River: You've made a 1 card king high flush on a paired board. The LP player is yet to act, and will likely pay off one bet with his pair. If you raise, there are few hands that can pay you off (really only a couple of flushes) you could get nastily 3-bet. The read on the bettor says he's not messing around; I might not even raise him with the A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]