Question about combo draws - Page 2

WhiteWolf · #11 10-22-2007, 10:11 PM

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Anyone bet the flop harder? I like a pot-size bet here.

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HIs draw is too big to pot bet and chase people away almost everytime.

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I'm not sure I understand this - are you saying we want a call? Sure we have great equity, but any pair or Q+ high will have odds to call (although they don't know it). I'd rather take it down with J-high right now. If I do get a call, I've also built a bigger pot for those times I do hit.

herro_radies · #12 10-22-2007, 10:19 PM

as for psb or 2/3 or whatever, i say go with whatever you have been betting for, like whatever you have been cbetting/double barrelling for throughout the session... it disguises your hand a bit better, and this isn't a situation where you have overs and are trying to price out any draws, so on the turn, bet whatever your typical 2nd barrel would be...

iheartponeez · #13 10-22-2007, 10:32 PM

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I'm not sure I understand this - are you saying we want a call? Sure we have great equity, but any pair or Q+ high will have odds to call (although they don't know it). I'd rather take it down with J-high right now. If I do get a call, I've also built a bigger pot for those times I do hit.

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Almost any hand out there right now is behind me. I can hit 15 outs (4 7's, 4 Q's, 7 diamonds), more if he's just working with top pair or something like 99.

That puts me at 60% to win the hand if we just shove here. So I think I'm ahead against most hands, but once the turn blanks NOW I'm behind.

WhiteWolf · #14 10-22-2007, 10:49 PM

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I'm not sure I understand this - are you saying we want a call? Sure we have great equity, but any pair or Q+ high will have odds to call (although they don't know it). I'd rather take it down with J-high right now. If I do get a call, I've also built a bigger pot for those times I do hit.

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Almost any hand out there right now is behind me. I can hit 15 outs (4 7's, 4 Q's, 7 diamonds), more if he's just working with top pair or something like 99.

That puts me at 60% to win the hand if we just shove here. So I think I'm ahead against most hands, but once the turn blanks NOW I'm behind.

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Being ahead (aka a favorite to win at showdown) does not necessarily mean you want calls on the flop. Remember, you're also fighting over the money currently in the pot. Here, even though your opponent may only have 40% equity, your bet gives him 2.5-to-1 odds when he only needs 1.5-to-1 to call correctly. A larger flop bet increases your fold equity, gets more money in the pot w/an equity edge when you are called (compared to a smaller flop bet), and builds a bigger pot for the times you do hit (which will make it harder for your opponent to get away from his hand).

TTStrangler · #15 10-22-2007, 10:53 PM

Ok repping the A makes complete sense, what about a total brick on the turn, still don't take the free card?

WhiteWolf · #16 10-22-2007, 10:58 PM

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Ok repping the A makes complete sense, what about a total brick on the turn, still don't take the free card?

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I like continuing. You're going to have to fire 2-barrel bluffs from time to time or you'll become totally predictable. I can't think of a better time to fire twice then a combo draw this strong.

kom · #17 10-22-2007, 11:13 PM

On the flop you should bet whatever your standard c-bet on flop of this texture (flush/straight draw heavy) is. For me this is full pot 100% of the time with your hand, black AA, A2hh or whatever hand I raised from the button.

poincaraux · #18 10-23-2007, 12:19 AM

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Now, I lead the flop with the intention of 3-betting all-in if I'm raised,

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So like this?

BB ($28.55)
UTG ($20.50)
MP ($22.85)
Hero ($34.90)
SB ($56.95)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises to $1, SB calls $0.90, 1 fold.

Flop: ($2.25) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1.5, SB raises to $5.00, Hero raises to $33.90

That's a really big 3-bet.

I don't really make those, so I'm curious. What do you make them with, combo draws and sets?

What's your range for betting the flop in the first place, something like AKo,AKs,ATo,ATs,A8s,AA,KK,QQ,JJ,TT,99,88,55,67s,J9 s?

So you'll probably lead and fold to a raise with AKo,AhKh,AdKd,AcKc (19 combos)
You'll b3bai with AdTd,Jd9d,6d7d,TT,88,55 (12 combos)
You'll bet/call with AdKd,ATo,A8o,6s7s,6h5h,6c5c,AA,KK,QQ,JJ,99 (57 combos)

Does that sound about right?

So, that's a big 3-bet. I'd guess that overpairs probably repop you preflop. So, if he calls with sets and Ace-high flush draws
AdKd,AdQd,AdJd,AdTd,Ad9d,Ad7d,Ad6d,Ad4d,Ad3d,Ad2d, TT,88,55 (19 combos)
you're a 55:45 favorite, so that's pretty good.

It seems like we have a lot of hands where we'll raise/call, but be afraid to put in the whole 140bb most of the time. And, since he raised on a scary flop, we might get put to that decision.

This hand might be kind of interesting to work all the way through. Did I get your flop range about right?
What do you think his range for calling preflop out of the SB is? I'm curious to see whether or not we can get more value by playing more than just the flop.

bknollenberg · #19 10-23-2007, 12:22 AM

i would bet out the turn, probably hoping to be raised. if he has an A, you have eleventybatrillion outs and want to get as much of his money in that pot as possible. if he does raise i could either see saying "FU OMG I SHOVE" or "FU OMG I CALL AND HIT ON RIVER AND SHIP IT CRUCIAL WAT IT DO". your choice. choose wisely.