25NL QQ in 4bet pot

[ElectricWaffles]

I'm playing devil's advocate here. I'm throwing this out there... hehe

Most of you advocate folding the flop, would you fold to a bet on any kind flop, if you didn't improve your hand?

Isn't it also the case that the guy who 4bet is nearly always going to bet the flop? Would you think that somebody who 4bet AK preflop wont CB?

If so, why call the 4bet in the first place, why not fold preflop rather than chasing the slim chance that your QQ will improve?

Hope that's lucid enough to follow

[Lanny]

Unless you've seen villain get out of line with mid pocket pairs on low boards I'd dump it too. I think you made the right decision.

The min 4bet rr is so confusing. Anyone have any insight on this?

Happy bday [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[RapidEvolution]

Waffles, if villain 4bet shoved I'd fold it with no prob. With 4-1 odds and stack sizes I can call this purely for setmine value even if I put him squarely on AA. Calling preflop costs 2.50 into a 10 dollar pot. If I hit, both stacks are going in anyway and I'm getting another 25 from him. If I'm not totally off here, I'm risking $2.50 to win 35 (the 10 already in the pot and the $25 he has left :mind you, these are estimates). I know the numbers are off a bit (and I didn't consider us both hitting) but I'm pretty sure implied odds justify a call to setmine here.

[ElectricWaffles]

Rapid: That's a good point, looking at the bet sizes.

Happy birthday!

[CaptVimes]

Call preflop against this ep raise. We really don't have much of an equity advantage here plus we have position. Basically this guy is raising 99+ & AK in this spot, but what will he call/reraise a 3bet with? Renton commented in one of my posts that was similar that 3 betting here narrows villains range even tighter. I want to play my queens against his full range on the flop which he is likely to CBET. Not just JJ+ which now puts us at an equity disadvantage.

Granted his stats are for <100 hands so he may not truly be this tight, but even so I think his 4 bet told you everything you needed to know.

[threads13]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm playing devil's advocate here. I'm throwing this out there... hehe

Most of you advocate folding the flop, would you fold to a bet on any kind flop, if you didn't improve your hand?

Isn't it also the case that the guy who 4bet is nearly always going to bet the flop? Would you think that somebody who 4bet AK preflop wont CB?

If so, why call the 4bet in the first place, why not fold preflop rather than chasing the slim chance that your QQ will improve?

Hope that's lucid enough to follow

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, your points are absolutely correct but I think you can call for set value since he just minraised.

[threads13]

[ QUOTE ]
Call preflop against this ep raise. We really don't have much of an equity advantage here plus we have position. Basically this guy is raising 99+ & AK in this spot, but what will he call/reraise a 3bet with? Renton commented in one of my posts that was similar that 3 betting here narrows villains range even tighter. I want to play my queens against his full range on the flop which he is likely to CBET. Not just JJ+ which now puts us at an equity disadvantage.

Granted his stats are for <100 hands so he may not truly be this tight, but even so I think his 4 bet told you everything you needed to know.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, a man after my own heart.

Edit: CV, tell me that I had some small part in this analysis! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Edit 2: Although, in this spot I think you still have to consider players on your left. Do you want them in? Will they squeeze?

[RapidEvolution]

Calling preflop is just going to encourage a table of loose passives to come along for the ride, leaving me with QQ against a preflop raiser whose hand I haven't defined enough and out of position against who knows how many people. It seems like doing this is a plan to get all my chips in on a low flop and I really don't like this given that the only info I have is that 1 person raised preflop.

[threads13]

[ QUOTE ]
Calling preflop is just going to encourage a table of loose passives to come along for the ride, leaving me with QQ against a preflop raiser whose hand I haven't defined enough and out of position against who knows how many people. It seems like doing this is a plan to get all my chips in on a low flop and I really don't like this given that the only info I have is that 1 person raised preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

If all the players on your left are loose then maybe I would agree. Do you have any reads on the players on your left?

Why do you not want the easy money in the pot?

[RapidEvolution]

Because playing a big pair against a large field out of position sucks? Just my opinion. :/