20NL: 2nd barrel on this dry board? (probably boring hand)

[KEW]

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What flop are you guys going to cbet against 2 villains if not this one? Villains both limp called and there are very few hands that can connect with this flop. I don't cbet a lot against more than one villain, esp. on this limit on this site. But I really think if there is a flop where it has fold equity, because both villain will most likely have a pure nothing, it's this.

Or would you bet on a dry flop like 2-tone and more straighty? What's your reasoning? 2 high cards = more FE vs. smallish PPs? Hit me.

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I do not think I C-bet is that "bad" if at all...This is one of the best flops there is to C-bet..However we have limited reads on BOTH villains..Based on the limited reads BOTH villain appear to be loose and somewhat passive...At this level a C-bet with a whiffed hand into multiple villain is a marginal bet at best..

I put emphasis on he button because the button is greatly relevant in the hand..With the button yet to act UTG flop calling range is limited...If UTG calls the flop is is highly likely to be calling down the rest of the way...

[Genz]

Since this hand isn't too interesting, I'm going to post the results here: I shut down, it got checked down and he showed QQ. Yes, a 35/10 limp called with QQ UTG. I wondered if a 2nd barrel might have pushed him off of that, but I think just giving it up in these spots is clearly the only thing to do.

[KEW]

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What flop are you guys going to cbet against 2 villains if not this one?

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One that hit me or with some good outs.

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Villains both limp called and there are very few hands that can connect with this flop. I don't cbet a lot against more than one villain, esp. on this limit on this site. But I really think if there is a flop where it has fold equity, because both villain will most likely have a pure nothing, it's this.

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Main villain plays 35% of his hands, you can maybe narrow this a litttle for calling your PF raise but it will still include any card. If he stayed around for the flop he had a made hand or likely paired the board. No way these people let a pair go.

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With unpaired starting hands, you only hit one of your cards only about 1/3 of the time. The same goes for villain, obv. So unless he has a PP, he has nothing here the huge majority of the time, ESPECIALLY if he plays a lot of hands. And this board is really unlikely to have hit a lot of hands. And the definition of a continuation bet is that you keep the pressure up when you haven't hit, because from a mathematical standpoint, your villain will have just as little the huge majority of the time and you can take the pot down. If you hit the flop, you are value betting, not c-betting. And if you never cbet and only vbet, then you will be hugely exploitable and giving a lot of pots away for free.

Edit: or were you arguing against a 2nd barrel with the 2nd part of your post? I read it as an argument against a cbet on the flop.

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Mathmatically speaking then 66% of the time one of the 2 villains would've hit the flop...Now it comes down to reads..What will these villains fold??? Will BOTH villains anything less then TP??? If yes a C-bet will be +EV..If one or both villain calls down light,floats(doubt villain would even know that's what he's doing and why) and/or just generally goes to far with weak hand a C-bet here would be -EV...

I think your C-bet size here was perfect...

[MaltbyStu]

You are correct my 1st statement mixed v-bet and c-bet. To be clear, I may c-bet into 2 opponents OOP if I have outs to improve.

My second point was arguing against the 2nd barrel. Hope I'm clearer this time.

[KEW]

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Since this hand isn't too interesting, I'm going to post the results here: I shut down, it got checked down and he showed QQ. Yes, a 35/10 limp called with QQ UTG. I wondered if a 2nd barrel might have pushed him off of that, but I think just giving it up in these spots is clearly the only thing to do.

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I disagree with you here..I think these hands are very interesting and very important..IMO these are the type of hands that far to often get over looks when we self review..In fact these and similar hands can sometimes have a greater long run effect on a micro players EV then the larger more "exciting" pots where "we" have tough decisions.."Tough" decision are likely close decision either way..

[Genz]

considering that $2.40 on this limit are 12BB and that a 2nd barrel can easily cost you 30BB, you can wreck your winrate for like 400 hands easily when you mess up in a spot like this. So yeah, it might actually be interesting. I just thought it was probably one of the few clear cut decisions.

And about the mathematical thingy: of course my numbers were for situations with 2 players to the flop. I wanted to make an argument with Maltby because I understood his post as if he would only bet flops if he hit stuff. Since it's very early here now, I don't know the probability that two of three players miss the flop and don't have a pair afterwards. But I think it's still >45%. So thanks for complimenting my bet size [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Lego05]

This is like the most perfect flop to c-bet on.

Once called though I'm like never double barreling in this situation.