Do you peel this flop?

[Stealthy]

The problem I have with peeling is that there are very few turns that we can continue against the field with, whilst raising and hopefully pushing out the other 2 players increases our equity in the pot a good %. I don't agree with the other poster at all that we can fold any Aces outs as that is never happening.

Our equity is too bad 4 way on the flop to peel so if we are continuing then I want it HU if possible.

[Stealthy]

[ QUOTE ]
uhhh, c/r?

[/ QUOTE ]

Please explain why this is bad to help the ill informed out!

[Absolution]

My problem with peeling is that our outs are all difficult to play, except for the queens. If we hit the straight it's going to be difficult to get paid unless we are beat. So, if the action goes like this:

You peel, everybody else folds.

The turn comes K of spades.

You bet, he raises. Now what? You've just put in a lot of bets in a small pot and are now at best chopping.

[danzasmack]

In a limped pot, if i am in the SB, and it checks to the button, who bets THIS flop, what's his range? you're crazy if you think he always has an ace or a king or a queen here. no way.

You c/r because if someone DOES have an ace you can take some heat with mp/gutshot. You push out other queens hopefully (though not likely). Bogus jacks can leave, and we probably just win the pot here.

Keep in mind, i really think a donkey bets JTo on this flop.

This isn't a raised pot.

IMO calling is really bad. Alomst as bad as folding. This is a raise.

Man every time i type "this is a raise" or something i think of that scene in gangs of new york. "This is a KILL. This is a KILL. This is a wound. This is a KILL."

anyway, raise the flop.

If he pops the turn, are you really considering folding!?! c'mon. Call. 3-bet is a spew and that's that.

Also, when you c/r the flop and he calls with J8hh, his turn bluff raise frequency is like 10x higher than when you c/c lead. Not that the turn is a fold, just that we make more money when we play the hand that way.

What is all this calling business? WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU GUYS!

[Tryptamean]

hm, I think spiking a K will get you paid off by a lot of worse hands. Ax will still never fold.

So, I have stove chugging away with some pretty wide ranges for these guys, removing premium hands. Its looking like the equity is converging around 34% for our hand, which is higher than I expected. I still want to just call because worse hands of UTG and BB are folding anyway and we dont mind a call from them if they have Kx or Tx.

[danzasmack]

You can't play perfect poker OOP vs. passive idiots. You can try, but you can't. You can't win the max on every hand. I don't think it's a +EV strategy. Sometimes you have to take a pot down.

Also consider the fact that you fold out Tx. Q8?

[numbnuts007]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't agree with the other poster at all that we can fold any Aces outs as that is never happening.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't think we can fold a nit with A2 for two bets?

[Tryptamean]

[ QUOTE ]
What is all this calling business? WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU GUYS!

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally, I have started to love passive lines a lot. So often its the money line, but you make good points. Maybe I am wrong here.

[jba]

i can't decide between raise and call but I am STUNNED by the people saying fold. wow.

danza,
"Also, when you c/r the flop and he calls with J8hh, his turn bluff raise frequency is like 10x higher than when you c/c lead."

I think the exact opposite. I think c/c lead screams weak ass draw sucky hand.

[danzasmack]

Meh you can ask plenty of people, i'm prob more passive than most of you. But i think this is just a bad spot for it.