JTs

[Smurph64]

obviously you don't have J10 of spades. if you have J10 diamonds you have 2 outs with the ten 1.5 outs with a Jack and 1 for backdoor action both ways. 4.5:1 here immediately but needing to see two bets likely. Pretty close odds if 2 call after me, not great but close.

That means I may peel. But there are 5 more yet to act in this pot. I don't think my 10's are good very often. With that many left to act and the table being loose, its more likely to be aggressive as well, a call could leave me having to place two or 3 more just to see the turn.

Think I fold and wait for a less thin opportunity.

[JJack]

I was thought that its more raise correct based on SSHE.
Pot is big (and can be bigger cus PF is more then 6 handed and some players tend to see SH).
I have BDFD 1,5 outs and BDSD with only one card 0,5 outs,
set 2 outs + 2 pair 1,5 so all = 5,5 outs

pot is now 9SB and pot was unraised so when i reise i can protect my J's 2 outs

Wasnt it scenario at SSHE "raise with u marginal hand when pot is big and u can protect/buy some outs" ?

I mean reise is better here then call and call is better then fold.

[Smurph64]

your forgetting about the flush draw so you don't have 5.5 outs to the best hand potentially if your straight completes with a spade.

I give both bd's .5 each. 1.5 outs for the Jacks is optimistic as well. But being I cut the bd's down to .5 each I figure 1.5 is close enough.

If you are including the backdoor draws in your odds count you have to count half a bet into the mix. so you need to make 1.5 bets to win 4 currently.

You need 5 outs for a 4:1 bet. you are getting 8:3, its close if you get 2 limpers for the implied but you can't afford a reraise or too many callers.

Your draw is likely 2nd best hand draw with any spade or the Jack.

Its different if you have a draw that can't be dominated but this isn't one of those times.

[JJack]

why u count BDFD only 0,5 out ?

when someone make str8 or 2 pair i think i can still count at good action and good implied odds at river with my flush

[Niediam]

This discussion should be call or raise instead of call or fold...

[bozlax]

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pot is now 9SB and pot was unraised so when i reise i can protect my J's 2 outs

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JJ, you need to study up on raising to protect. First question: what do you think you are protecting your hand from by raising? Second question: how does a raise protect your hand? Third question (not really a question): you can't "protect" outs, you can buy outs, you can only protect a made hand.

That said, Neidam's right, Hero shouldn't be looking to fold here. So, it comes down to reads, real reads, does BB's flop bet indicate a hand like Qx, any hand that made a hand with the board, or any hand that connected with the board in any way? How hard is that connection (e.g. would BB bet out with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8x)? Are the players yet to act passive, aggro, or tight postflop (e.g. will a raise fold a gutty and clean up your J outs)?

THAT said, PB's got a good point:

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default is fold - so as not to get into trouble

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I say again, Hero shouldn't be looking to fold. However, if you can't answer the above questions with a certain amount of certainty (even just using default reads for the site/limit), or you're going to feel compelled to call a raise and calls behind you "because you already called one on this street" and then call turn and river bets UI "because the pot's gotten so big" then getting out now isn't a big mistake, if it's a mistake at all.

Edit: huh, didn't give my action. Fancy that. Anyway, with 8 players seeing the flop and only 1 fold so far, there's not a snowball's chance in hell of folding anything that you want to fold with a raise. You're getting called by queens, better tens, bottom pair, and any sort of draw. You can't clean up outs, and don't have any value. Call. If it's a single raise back to you call, more than one back to you fold. Be ready to bail on the turn UI, regardless of the action behind you on the flop.

[Smurph64]

Forget about just looking at outs which are thinner than you expect and may actually give you second best hand. Look at your position on the table.

What do you do if you call and get two coming back to you. Well now you are in for 3 more. If you raise you aren't going to get good results at all. Those that will pay you off will fold those that have you beat will call.

I learnt that chasing is such a waste of cash. If you get high winning a big pot go for it. But I pick better big pots to win with.

Let the idiots chase and you lead. Big pots are great to play in position and lousy to play out of position. Keep that rule in your head and it will generate a lot less mistakes and a lot more return.

[JJack]

great post bozlax

what do you think you are protecting your hand from by raising?

I protect from any weak draw like bottom pair like A7 or GS like 89, J9, K9

how does a raise protect your hand?

those draw can make uncorect cold call or fold and then i increase my winning chance

Third question (not really a question): you can't "protect" outs, you can buy outs, you can only protect a made hand.

Yes. Its what i have in mind but i wrong write it and miss words.

I wanna buy 2 J's outs and wanna villains with hands like AJ, J9 to fold.

OK now read ... i suck here [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
now i understand why read is so important

only read what i have that table is quite passive

[Xylocain]

I think this is a call. BB usually have Qx or a FD. I fold a lot of turns and bet a lot of turns if BB checks.

[Aaron W.]

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this is a fold.

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If the players behind are passive, I can see this as a good place to call getting 9:1 (plus callers).

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lol?

with two pair outs making a straight possible with multiple redraws, and the fact that hero is far from closing the action, i dont think this is even close to a call.

not to mention we are in a position to make very little if we turn a J, raise, and shut out the rest of the field.

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When all is taken into consideration, I think hero has a solid 5 outs with both backdoor draws, trips, and two pair draws (even though making his hand may bring a redraw, the doesn't stand to be big enough that you can't make someone make a mistake of calling two cold on the turn if you get to raise the flop bettor). This indicates a call, especially when you consider that you're likely going to pick up 3-4 callers behind (so hero is looking at 12:1 to make this call).