Checking the turn in position

[jba]

[ QUOTE ]
Stop saying: "Check the turn behind when you have outs"

Its one of those stupid dogmas that float around and are completely useless. As in everything else in poker IT DEPENDS!

[/ QUOTE ]

wow thank you for saying that.

[Absolution]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Stop saying: "Check the turn behind when you have outs"

Its one of those stupid dogmas that float around and are completely useless. As in everything else in poker IT DEPENDS!

[/ QUOTE ]

wow thank you for saying that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ya, I was going to say something in response to that post. Something along the lines of "Have you ever heard of all one liner poker sayings are useless?"

The guy in hand 1 called with JTo on the river, so my river bet actually turned out to be okay, except he ignored the board and action and called anyway, like calling stations do.

The guy in hand 2 called down with Q9o and played well against my particular hand since I had nothing, but is obviously passive.

[Absolution]

This is against a calling station. Is this another check behind on the turn? I bet this one because I thought there were a lot of draws he would be chasing here and I could take the free showdown. When I spiked the river I value bet though. I'm not sure about that because if he had a draw he might have just completed it (although I'd expect a donk bet most of the time in that case.)

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls, BB folds.

Turn: (4 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls.

River: (6 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls.

Final Pot: 8 BB

[jba]

looks perfect. river is a must bet.

[Apanage]

These are easy turn bets IMO.

Hand 1:If you find yourself on turn with a hand that has almost no showdown value there is no point checking behind against loose peelers or/calling stations.I bet this against an aggressive player also.
Preflop raising with Q9 is no good.You make money UI against these players by raising Ax or Kx hands then bet flop,bet turn check river behind.Raising hands that has little showdown value will just put you in difficult spots especially when someone else realizes that you isolate light.

Hand 2:You have lots of outs with a hand that has no showdown value against a passive loose peeler.You don´t have to think twice to bet that one.

I always checks river behind regardless what I have.I think it is -EV to bluff river since he is looking us up with so many hands that calls turn.Sometimes even Ahigh

[Absolution]

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 1:If you find yourself on turn with a hand that has almost no showdown value there is no point checking behind against loose peelers or/calling stations.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this. I have a gutshot and 2 cards that are possibly live. Since I have no showdown value and will get called here almost every time on that board, I should check with my decent draw and hope to get a free showdown that way.

[Apanage]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Hand 1:If you find yourself on turn with a hand that has almost no showdown value there is no point checking behind against loose peelers or/calling stations.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this. I have a gutshot and 2 cards that are possibly live. Since I have no showdown value and will get called here almost every time on that board, I should check with my decent draw and hope to get a free showdown that way.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have obviously changed your mind since you posted.

The reasons to why you bet are:

1.You have a good chance to fold out better hands.

2.You can very well have the best hand so why don´t charge him then instead of giving him a freecard.It is better to do that than to induce a bluff that you may have a problem to call.If he donk bluffs a missed draw(very uncommon for a loose passive) you could as well had bet the turn to begin with.
Because he wouldn´t have layed down that draw anyway.

3. When you catch your "live" ones that does not do you much good.It could very easily be so that catching a card (especially a nine) could be EV-.If he donks river you probably call costing you another BB.If he checks and you decide to bet it is not obvious that you win every time either.

4.You´re going to isolate him a lot(with a better choice of hands than this one).The lighter he is calling you down you easier you´re going to win money in the end.So if he catches you with a pair that does not matter much even it would be a slightly -Ev move to bet turn.

[Absolution]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Hand 1:If you find yourself on turn with a hand that has almost no showdown value there is no point checking behind against loose peelers or/calling stations.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this. I have a gutshot and 2 cards that are possibly live. Since I have no showdown value and will get called here almost every time on that board, I should check with my decent draw and hope to get a free showdown that way.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have obviously changed your mind since you posted.


[/ QUOTE ]

Do you understand the context of my original post?

[ QUOTE ]

The reasons to why you bet are:

1.You have a good chance to fold out better hands.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think that's true on this board.

[ QUOTE ]

2.You can very well have the best hand so why don´t charge him then instead of giving him a freecard.It is better to do that than to induce a bluff that you may have a problem to call.If he donk bluffs a missed draw(very uncommon for a loose passive) you could as well had bet the turn to begin with.
Because he wouldn´t have layed down that draw anyway.


[/ QUOTE ]

In this spot I don't have a bluff catcher so I'm not worried about calling on the river. He's a loose passive and, like you said, he probably won't bet the river unless it's for value. By checking here I can probably still see a showdown and will still beat T high hands. This won't be as true against a more aggressive player, but in that case I still want to check because I don't want to have to call 2 on the turn. When I have showdown value and they like to peel and/or the board is draw heavy, then I agree that betting the turn is the way to go. When my hand is more marginal like this or the player is more tricky, checking becomes more attractive, even with hands that have showdown value.

[ QUOTE ]

3. When you catch your "live" ones that does not do you much good.It could very easily be so that catching a card (especially a nine) could be EV-.If he donks river you probably call costing you another BB.If he checks and you decide to bet it is not obvious that you win every time either.


[/ QUOTE ]

Betting will be easy if I spike a Q against a guy like this. I agree that the 9 would be more difficult though.

[ QUOTE ]

4.You´re going to isolate him a lot(with a better choice of hands than this one).The lighter he is calling you down you easier you´re going to win money in the end.So if he catches you with a pair that does not matter much even it would be a slightly -Ev move to bet turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I try not to make any -EV moves, especially at this level where it's not likely to increase my Shania.

[Apanage]

[ QUOTE ]

Do you understand the context of my original post?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course I do.I was just being a bit sarcastic.But maybe that was unnecessary.I just felt that you just repeated what Leader said and I thought that was kind of funny.With the certainty you emphasized that you disagreed with my thoughts it was funny that you posted the hand to begin with. But I´ll try to stop making stupid remarks.


[ QUOTE ]

I don't think that's true on this board.

[/ QUOTE ]

Loose peelers are not the same as plain stupid players.You´re folding out many Ax hands here.
Don´t do the mistake of checking turn making "Ax float flop sees if he checks his draw" hands profitable to play.And if you don´t fold out any Ax hands then raising Q9o preflop is definitely a huge mistake.
You can´t expect to hit or to take this down on flop UI enough times for this raise to be profitable.

[ QUOTE ]
By checking here I can probably still see a showdown and will still beat T high hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes but with a flush draw and some straight draws out there you have a substantial chance of being ahead.That combined with the possibility to fold out a better hand and/or catching a river makes this a clear cut bet.The risk of running into a turn raise seems awfully small if you´re right about his playing style.




[ QUOTE ]

Betting will be easy if I spike a Q against a guy like this. I agree that the 9 would be more difficult though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes maybe but what if he bets river?You said yourself that this guy is probably not bluffing if he bets but can you fold your 9?And your Q seems to have less than 50% chance to win.Because it makes no sense for him to bet a J.
You really don´t know which of your cards that were really live.By betting turn you´re minimizing the risk that he is bluffing river and you make it less probable that he bets any made hand, which makes it up to you to decide what hands you should value bet or not if you hit river.

And even if he check/calls river light he would have many busted draws which means that your bet if you hit will be called a little less often than you hope.And I wouldn´t dare to bet my 9.


[ QUOTE ]

I try not to make any -EV moves, especially at this level where it's not likely to increase my Shania.

[/ QUOTE ]

If it would be a -EV move which I happens to think it isn´t then Shania is worth it anyway.Because it would be so extremely little -EV that if you just collected a fraction of a bet later on it would be worth it.And that I believe we could do.

[6471849653]

In your games, I wouldn't worry about the turn as it makes little to no difference. You say you play it by the feel and that's what I do too, though my default is to bet vs. loose players or so as it's the theoretically correct one.

Not sure about the "aggressive" thoughts of yours, but if the opponent is an aggressive one (but still loose), he is less likely to have a hand when he just calls, and less likely to have a solid draw as he would have raised with it.
When a passive player calls, he may or may not have a hand, and at river if he bets after you check or whatever, he might have a missed draw or some high card.

I don't always call at river when I have missed it all, but I call and bluff any time I think I have enough chance to win. I don't bluff often on the river but one feels in cases that the opponent might have got something to draw on the turn with, or that he is very loose (normally players who call up to river all the way from the flop, will not be folding, so he must be very loose or I think he got something extra on the turn, or in cases I know he calls up to the river but then folds but that's 1-in-1 vs. some kings), and so I have a chance to bluff him out on the river. Sometimes I give up on the turn, take a free card and fold on the river; it's cheap actually.

Q9 isolation is good enough though the argument against it is the missing high card vs. a loose (calling station) player, but it's bad poker not to raise with it; even if Sklansky comes and says one should just call with it, I would still say to raise with it as I just feel it clearly that it's a bad play not to raise with it; even if I know the limper has an ace or a king, I would still raise with it.

JT button open-raise, the same thing as with the Q9. I ran simulations somewhere in 2002 about this and weaker button open-raises even when both blinds are calling all the time, and the result was that one is better to open-raise than open-call (actually in every case; not a single hand worth playing was worth limping with when on the button), though in S&amp;M Ax, and small pairs are limping in very loose games from late positions when the first one in, but it's not based on simulations, and by the way, JT is safer than 22 or A2, and you do not need to bet the flop (and if one bets the flop - to get a turn free card - one can check the turn) when both blinds call.