Argument with local B&M donks has me second guessing myself

[PantsOnFire]

The best hand is the one that I want. So in your case, that's AcQc.

To shut those players up, lay out those exact same pf cards and shuffle all the other cards into the stub. Offer any player to play 88 against your AcQc for $100 each (so the stub is 46 cards with the K8 being dead cards).

[pig4bill]

K8 wasn't dead. He was in the pot too.

AQc was an underdog in the pot. Saying one of the 8's is dead is no more relevant than asking around the table to see if anyone mucked an ace or queen, as was previously mentioned. Either you ignore the K8 hand entirely in the argument, or you include it, and it's live.

[PantsOnFire]

[ QUOTE ]
K8 wasn't dead. He was in the pot too.

AQc was an underdog in the pot. Saying one of the 8's is dead is no more relevant than asking around the table to see if anyone mucked an ace or queen, as was previously mentioned. Either you ignore the K8 hand entirely in the argument, or you include it, and it's live.

[/ QUOTE ]
No problem. K8 is live and if that hand wins, you split the pot. Or, you kill the K8 hand at the river and give the pot to the second best hand...

Take your pick.

[Biggle10]

[ QUOTE ]
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3114464
pokenum -h ac qc - kh 8h - 8c 8s
Holdem Hi: 1370754 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ac Qc 585806 42.74 780573 56.94 4375 0.32 0.428
Kh 8h 324724 23.69 1016516 74.16 29514 2.15 0.247
8s 8c 430710 31.42 910530 66.43 29514 2.15 0.324

[/ QUOTE ]

How are people arguing that 88 is the best hand? Hold'em is played with 7 cards.

[CORed]

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Pokerstove results:

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

144,192,195 games 149.305 secs 965,755 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 40.810% 40.52% 00.30% 58432109 429251.50 { 88 }
Hand 1: 41.133% 40.70% 00.44% 58693360 633339.00 { AQs }
Hand 2: 18.057% 17.43% 00.63% 25131604 913076.50 { random }
</pre><hr />

Three-way, against a random third hand, AQs is a little bit ahead of 88 . This is a Monte Carlo, so the numbers aren't exact, but they're close.

[Rek]

I can't believe some of you guys are arguing - the best hand is the hand with the highest % of winning once all cards are dealt.

I havn't done the math but in this case if AQs has a greater % of winning it is clearly the best hand. The fact that he already has a pair is of no consequence.

OP, I'm with you 100%

[Galwegian]

I had a long argument with another "spewtard" (I like!)about this online. There are at least three different ways to define "best hand" in the situation you describe

1. The hand that has the most equity in an all in confrontation (AQ is ahead here).

2. The hand that has the most equity in terms of showdown equity and what Chen and Ankenman call "ex-showdown equity", i.e equity in any post flop betting that occurs
(this is harder to quantify precisely but my guess is that AQ is even further ahead in these terms as 88 or K8 will find it hard to live with any postflop action on the vast majority of flops.)

3. The hand that makes the best poker hand at the given moment. This really only makes sense after the flop, as a poker hand consists of 5 cards.

Most spewtards will argue vehemently that 3 is the only correct definition, when in fact any one who understands anything about poker realises that 3 is completely irrelevant in most situations. In your particular situation 1 is the appropriate definition, whereas for any hand involving postflop betting, 2 is the appropriate definition of the three presented.

I realise of course that there are other possibilities, but I think that these three are the most pertinent to the discussion.

[corsakh]

Unless your playing a two card holdem, the best hand = the hand with the most equity.

When you have more equity than your opponent does, HE is drawing to get lucky, not you. Hence the best hand.

Besides, with two hole cards you don't even have a hand yet.

[rakk]

People saying the winning hand at the moment is the best hand are the same people who say you should never go all-in with a draw. Best hand = hand with the most equity. I think KQhh vs 85o on a JhTh8d board it's pretty obvious KQh is the best hand .

[Sevenfold]

He (88) had the 'best hand' in their world.

I like to use the term 'money favorite'.

Yes, your 88 was ahead of my AQs, but I was a big money fav.