Weird JJ hand live $1-$2, please play this through with me... - Page 2

AlexB182 · #11 09-11-2007, 12:41 PM

If you decide to CB you have to make a real bet, at least 2/3 or 3/4 of the pot. Everything less than that doesn't achieve anything and just blasts the pot and gives great odds for every kind of draw, like Ax of hearts, Kh9x or KhTx...

iStackBooks · #12 09-11-2007, 12:57 PM

Indeed, but I can feel relatively comfortable c-betting when any 1 over hits, and the other half of the time we are good...

I bet a little less than you are suggesting, because I didn't feel great about betting the pot and getting 1/3 of my chips in. If he comes over the top all in, we are going to be getting 2-1 or better, and his possible holdings are 88, 77 (although I'd expect these hands to be in his $15 preflop betting range), 8Q8, Q7, any Q (other than AQ most likely given his preflop bet), any flush draw, any straight draw, any combo draw, any 8 (seriously)... so we are very tempted to make a questionable call due to the pot odds. If this guy is a rock obviously it's an easy fold to a push but this guy's range is so ridiculously wide that we will not be completely comfortable making this fold getting 2-1. I think we can get away with slightly smaller bets in live play than online because people pay less attention to the pot, and will almost always respect a bet of $50 or more.

Anyway, I bet like $50-$60 and he called. Now there is $100-$120 in the main pot, and $100-$120 in the side pot between him and I. This is where the hand gets really, really hard to play and I am kicking myself for letting the pot get so bloated OOP...

The turn is a K non heart. I sorta thought this was a decent card for me. If I check, I think this slows him down a little and I might be able to get to a cheap showdown. It also might not be a bad card to bluff at. If I push all in here, he is folding most of the time unless he has KQ or a big draw. Any 2 pair or set on the flop he is raising, and I really doubt he can call over $200 here with a Q. We are going to be ahead of any draw with one card to come so we can't really mind a call.

I decided that I was either going to check-fold to a bet (if he checks, reevaluate river) or go all in. Thoughts?

warrantofice · #13 09-11-2007, 01:02 PM

Yah you kinda shot yourself in the foot with you small initial raise, if people are raising to 15-20, than your reraises should be really big say 40-60. This also would make you decision on the flop much easier cause your getting pretty good odds to commit yourself with only 1 over card, especially a queen.
I do disagree with everone else here that said JJ isn't strong enough to do this play, if he had raised the correct ammount i think that JJ is plenty strong, I would prefer it over AK in most situations, I would personally have pull this same play with a pair as low as 99 depending on how randy i was feeling that day.
So you got the Q on the flop...I think the check would be my first option here, this doesn't commit you to the pot to much, i might even check blind, wait i retract checking blind because you have 2 villians to deal with, yep, you definetly when on a shooting spree towards you feet on this hand, JJ blows against 2 people. So yah, do the good old 3/4 pot raise and pray for the best, or check fold and save your money for a better preflop raise. .

iStackBooks · #14 09-11-2007, 01:10 PM

warrant the 2nd player is all in... we only have 1 opponent

iStackBooks · #15 09-11-2007, 01:13 PM

BTW, I'm just explaining my thought process during the hand... not trying to necessarily justify my play. Theoretically (if we are talking about playing the hand optimally), I think a bigger bet is better here but as a practical matter I don't think it would have made this hand any easier to play, and I really do believe that this is a big difference between live and online play (getting away with betting slightly less to avoid more difficult decisions/getting pot committed) as the pot size isn't staring you in the face (in fact, unless you are paying attention it is often very difficult to figure out as chips are scattered and most casinos do not allow dealers to spread the pot or help you figure out the pot size in any way). You are probably allowing yourself to play somewhat sub-optimally in certain situations but we all know that poker (especially live) involves a lot more than strictly theoretical thinking/decision making.

iStackBooks · #16 09-11-2007, 01:15 PM

Also, prefop I'm not sure that raising to 60 accomplishes much? At this point, we are probably only getting called by hands that are beating us, and are allowing hands that we are beating to get off easy. You say 40-60, but I made it 36 which is not much different than the bottom-mid part of that range.

iStackBooks · #17 09-11-2007, 01:17 PM

I'm really interested in thoughts on the turn

AlexB182 · #18 09-11-2007, 01:27 PM

For me, the PF raise size is fine.
The problem is, when you not CB here, you giving away control over this hand. The good, aggressive player has 800 behind, that means he can put A LOT of pressure on you, and it seems he is def capable of doing it with a number of hands post flop. Furthermore, if you just check, he can decide if he likes to take a free card or not and I don't think you want to give free cards here.
Turn sucks big style and I completely agree with either c/f or bet AI. Honestly, I think it comes down to your feeling here (as you said: live game is different from online games) and personally I'd somehow prefer c/f. I don't feel commited here and don't think I'm in front against much of his range here...

iStackBooks · #19 09-11-2007, 01:33 PM

Yeah, I really didn't feel great about an all in here either. I was very tempted to do it (as I thought he had to put me on QQ, KK, AA, maybe 88 or 77), but was reluctant to pull the trigger because he has a lot of money in front of him (more likely to make a big call to win a big pot) and has been making some weird calls and generally playing pretty loose (really wasn't positive that he'd fold a Q... and KQ is actually pretty likely).

KurtSF · #20 09-11-2007, 01:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Also, prefop I'm not sure that raising to 60 accomplishes much? At this point, we are probably only getting called by hands that are beating us, and are allowing hands that we are beating to get off easy. You say 40-60, but I made it 36 which is not much different than the bottom-mid part of that range.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're trying to patch the problems with this hand after you've already made the biggest mistakes. Limping first-in with JJ was a huge error. This post should have read:

[ QUOTE ]
I've got a loose image because I just made a squeeze and showed a deuce. I get JJ in middle position and make it $15. I was hoping to get the player on my left to come along since he's tight preflop but will stack off with any top pair, but he folded and I got one call from late position. Player is unknown but short stacked. Flop comes:
Q87 with two hearts
Pot is $30 and villain only has $25 or so left in his stack. Which will get me more value, open-shoving or check-calling?

[/ QUOTE ]

Or how about this option... calling the $7 closing the action and playing the flop with an under-represented hand?

And then there's making a bigger raise $50-$60 and trying to take the hand down now. Seriously, an overcard comes 57% of the time and I'd rather take a small $30 haul that see a flop in a bad position.

[ QUOTE ]

I'm really interested in thoughts on the turn

[/ QUOTE ]

I think your instincts are correct, the only reasonable options are c/f and shove. I want to be clear that I think this difficult decision was avoidable. I lean toward c/fing, but I'm a weak-tight nit, so take it for what its worth.