Game Theory: How do you apply it?

[jstill]

i dont even know where to begin in this thread...

there are spots to apply this looking at your watch thing and it has nothing to do with things like not raising good hands preflop or cbetting in HU or 3 way pots... know that most of all, anyone who cks behind flops with good hands as the preflop raiser (or bad hands as the pfr in HU or 3 way pots) or limps AA according to "game theory"/ watch randomizing is misapplying it

the spots to do it are when u ck on the river (with or without initiative) and dont want to always be ck folding so u call 1/ whatever the pot odds are percent of the time according to some random pattern (most people use time as its easier than the truly correct method and a good approximation).

the truth is unless its a regular you play against often, u dont need to concern urself with this and ultimately the question first off comes out whether u win when u call often enough to make a call profitable... if they dont bluff enough or if they always bluff enough vs ur pot odds always take that action dont randomize it.

You can do things like add randomizing hands to your range preflop so they cant put you on a super tight range in spots and play perfectly vs your preflop range postflop but again if your opponent isnt capable of playing correctly against u even if he knows ur opening range it doesnt matter and you dont need to add -EV hands on occasions.

spots to mix it up are ur flop cr'ing and 3betting range, and particularly your turn raising range, and second barreling range (and turn 3betting range vs some better opponents to play truly optimally)... if u always give up with bad hands after ur c bet and always fold after u ck the turn thats exploitable so you want to mix in betting weaker hands/draws on the turn on occasion (especially if they seem to be folding to your second barrel as theyve figured out what your betting patterns mean ie use metagame) and occasionally value cking behind on the turn to call a river bet, also this gives info on what they are betting the river with after u ck behind. Again metagame comes into play somewhat in chosing these lines (although the majority of your choices should be centered around what line is most EV, the board ur hand his range should u bet or ck the turn and call or fold to a river bet) so your better off using your head/intuiton/feel than your watch lol.

also dont forget just becuz it seems like players are often calling down with weak pairs when u have squat and folding when u have it, part of that is simply variance. there are a million ways to run bad and truthfully if they have the same information/ same action same board (assuming online play with no physical or timing tells) and they call down 77 one time and its good but fold another time when a hand like that would be 2nd best exact same scenario, it simply means 95%+ of the time they didnt have anything to calldown with (as they should take the same actions everytime with the same information unless their opponent adjusts, which players rarely think in terms of until much time has elasped and usually not until you truly do adjust).

Unless they are really good at metagame and know you and that you would be less likely to bluff this time as you've been getting looked up recently/ most people arent that good of 2nd level thinkers and part of that is what is known as the rock, paper scissors of poker. Most likely you're not getting out played they are just folding cuz they dont have anything to call with this time around esp if we're talking about someone with fishy or maniac stats. If they are this good probably dont sit at the same table or if you "have to" sit with them atleast avoid playing pots with them if you can

And remember when you have good hands ie u hit TP or have a set it means there are less good cards for others to have, so you should get looked up less (cant think of the term for this right now Im spacing, someone help me out, not bunching something else Im lookin for), thats just part of the game.

[tarheeljks]

the applications of game theory to poker are so overrated

[bxb]

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the applications of game theory to poker are so overrated

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yea. unless you are playing really high stakes or making a bot pretty much you shouldnt worry about it.

[jstill]

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the applications of game theory to poker are so overrated

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yea. unless you are playing really high stakes or making a bot pretty much you shouldnt worry about it.

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this is pretty wrong based on the definition of game theory.

You could say the idea of playing unexploitable poker and the idea of randomizing actions are overrated (because they are, except when playing very good players), but the idea of "game theory" is everything encompassed in the process of decision making in poker. At no point aren't you using game theory more or less. This goes from what hands you chose to play in different preflop spots to the concepts of c betting, value cking and value betting; bluffing semi bluffing ect ect are decisions made in game theory ie to exploit your opponents range/ tendencies and win money because you believe they are the best choices at that time for your ultimate goal: to win, maximize your profits/utility if those coincide for you (profits = utility in poker for you, true of myself not completely true for some).

Really game theory determines everyones actions in all of life, from liquidity preference, political choices, resource and time allocation and consumption/expenditure decisions. The most recent noble prize winner in economics (or maybe it was 2 years ago) was awarded it (actually two people were awarded it jointly) for their broad application of "game theory" to various real life scenarios most would probably never guess it applied to.

[Hair_of_the_Dog]

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You have 12 off-suit combos of AK .

If you wish to bluff 12% of the time , then this may be fine . It is unlikely any person will know what you're doing anyway, but if you want to be a nit about it , you can change your combo selection with each session or each hand!!

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Wow I can see someone thinking there are 14 offsuit combinations of AK, also thinking 1/14 = 14%

You correct him that there are only 12 combos, but why do you go along with 1/12 = 12%?

1/14 = 7.14%
1/12 = 8.33%

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2/14 = ~14%
2/12 = ~17%

A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
or
A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[JulioYalil]

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A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
or
A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

so whenever the board reads Ac Js 3d 4d 9s and i'm holdin Ah2h i can be 100% sure u r not bluffin and i won't pay u off. trust me if one of the regulars u play w/ is smart enough he'll figure that out eventually.

[tarheeljks]

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the applications of game theory to poker are so overrated

[/ QUOTE ]

yea. unless you are playing really high stakes or making a bot pretty much you shouldnt worry about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is pretty wrong based on the definition of game theory.

You could say the idea of playing unexploitable poker and the idea of randomizing actions are overrated (because they are, except when playing very good players), but the idea of "game theory" is everything encompassed in the process of decision making in poker. At no point aren't you using game theory more or less. This goes from what hands you chose to play in different preflop spots to the concepts of c betting, value cking and value betting; bluffing semi bluffing ect ect are decisions made in game theory ie to exploit your opponents range/ tendencies and win money because you believe they are the best choices at that time for your ultimate goal: to win, maximize your profits/utility if those coincide for you (profits = utility in poker for you, true of myself not completely true for some).

Really game theory determines everyones actions in all of life, from liquidity preference, political choices, resource and time allocation and consumption/expenditure decisions. The most recent noble prize winner in economics (or maybe it was 2 years ago) was awarded it (actually two people were awarded it jointly) for their broad application of "game theory" to various real life scenarios most would probably never guess it applied to.

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and this is why i think it's applications are overrated, b/c it's really all ready being applied. it seems like too many people believe that they can read a book about game theory and then suddenly they will have mastered a thought process that will let them crush the games.

[The Brikk]

i dont think this is a matter of math...i would say this is probably because your not playing differently the same hands.
maybe you play hands always the same or practicly the same so the other player just picked up on that. i think you should ajust your play accordingly to the players. your image at the table, your betting patterns, the amount of your bet, your position etc...

if i were you i would look for my betting patterns and a way to mixed my pre-flop play so that my post flop move would be more effective.

[jogsxyz]

AsKs, AsKh, AsKd, AsKc
AhKs etc.

Aren't there 16 combos?

AsAh, AsAd, AsAc, AhAd, AhAc, AdAc

6 combos for pairs.
12 combos if order counts.


If you go through a randomizing process for bluffing,
you must remember to go through it even when you know you're going to bet.

[JDalla]

game theory is more important in HU limit than any other (major) form of poker, imo.