5/10- 300xBB deep with KK in 4-bet pot.

[HustlerLA]

[ QUOTE ]
I hate the 5bet idea. He is repping AA preflop and he's not making this w/o AA or as a bluff w/ some sort of drawing hand. so you put more money in the pot against aa as a 4-1 dog and let him off the hook when hes a 4-1 dog.

first of all i make the 3bet larger preflop since you're so deep... you barely bet more than pot.

in line with my previous analysis i think he either has aa or air so i like your flop play, and i think i'd probably fold the turn. i mean he's tag and most tags aren't capable of putting 600bbs in with air... think does he expect you to fold kk/qq here? probably not... plus AA is still in your range.

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When you say let him off the hook as a 4 to 1 dog, then you are assuming he will fire one and only one c-bet on the flop and then shutdown, correct? If this is the case then I agree with you and dislke the 5bet after reconsideration. But that is walking a fine line no pun intended. I beleive most villians that were 4betting air/bluffing will shutdown as soon as you call the 4bet unless they flop 2pair+. If this is true than we are not letting them off the hook, but rather denying them the chance of out flopping us. I think it hinges on the question of, "will villian make a c-bet bluff if he doesnt have AA?" and, "if villian is capable of c-betting flop with air can he make the shove on the turn?"
if question 1 is yes and question 2 is no then your line is best.
if question 1 is no or question 2 is yes then i think a 5-bet has some benefit.
Do you see my point at all?

[TheWorstPlayer]

i like your line - now call.

[aislephive]

[ QUOTE ]

When you say let him off the hook as a 4 to 1 dog, then you are assuming he will fire one and only one c-bet on the flop and then shutdown, correct? If this is the case then I agree with you and dislke the 5bet after reconsideration. But that is walking a fine line no pun intended. I beleive most villians that were 4betting air/bluffing will shutdown as soon as you call the 4bet unless they flop 2pair+. If this is true than we are not letting them off the hook, but rather denying them the chance of out flopping us. I think it hinges on the question of, "will villian make a c-bet bluff if he doesnt have AA?" and, "if villian is capable of c-betting flop with air can he make the shove on the turn?"
if question 1 is yes and question 2 is no then your line is best.
if question 1 is no or question 2 is yes then i think a 5-bet has some benefit.
Do you see my point at all?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you think he is going to be super aggro in 4bet pots, then you obviously call and just call him down or something. If he is not going to bluff, or will only bluff once, you want to call still. If you think only AA is going to stick around if you 5bet, why would you turn KK effectively into a bluff? You aren't getting action from worse, and you obviously can't fold out better. This 5bet makes sense with air perhaps, since you believe his range to call/shove is strictly AA, and we should assume his 4betting range is a lot bigger than that, although it's probably all bluffs/AA that make up that range.

Bottom line is 5bet/folding is terrible here and you can't really make a case to justify it.

[HustlerLA]

For the most part "protecting the pot" is a lame ideology, but in this case i think it has value. If you have villian as super agrro and KK is far ahead of his 4bet range, than so be it, check call all the way, definetely. But, if villian is the type to 4bet representing AA and shutdown if he is called/raised (which is more commont then the superaggro 4-bet 3 barreler) then I still believe the 5bet has merit.

[Parlay Slow]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

When you say let him off the hook as a 4 to 1 dog, then you are assuming he will fire one and only one c-bet on the flop and then shutdown, correct? If this is the case then I agree with you and dislke the 5bet after reconsideration. But that is walking a fine line no pun intended. I beleive most villians that were 4betting air/bluffing will shutdown as soon as you call the 4bet unless they flop 2pair+. If this is true than we are not letting them off the hook, but rather denying them the chance of out flopping us. I think it hinges on the question of, "will villian make a c-bet bluff if he doesnt have AA?" and, "if villian is capable of c-betting flop with air can he make the shove on the turn?"
if question 1 is yes and question 2 is no then your line is best.
if question 1 is no or question 2 is yes then i think a 5-bet has some benefit.
Do you see my point at all?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you think he is going to be super aggro in 4bet pots, then you obviously call and just call him down or something. If he is not going to bluff, or will only bluff once, you want to call still.
<snip>

[/ QUOTE ]

If he's not going to bluff post flop, but you are committed to going broke, then it should be obvious that re-raising is better.

[PhishDudeChill]

This is silly. You have KK against a 25/21 and you have even looser numbers. The game is 5 handed and you only have 300BB, by the time you figure out he likely has AA it's no longer profitable to fold any two cards. I call all in here and am puzzled that I didn't get the money in sooner. Coolers happen.

[aislephive]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

When you say let him off the hook as a 4 to 1 dog, then you are assuming he will fire one and only one c-bet on the flop and then shutdown, correct? If this is the case then I agree with you and dislke the 5bet after reconsideration. But that is walking a fine line no pun intended. I beleive most villians that were 4betting air/bluffing will shutdown as soon as you call the 4bet unless they flop 2pair+. If this is true than we are not letting them off the hook, but rather denying them the chance of out flopping us. I think it hinges on the question of, "will villian make a c-bet bluff if he doesnt have AA?" and, "if villian is capable of c-betting flop with air can he make the shove on the turn?"
if question 1 is yes and question 2 is no then your line is best.
if question 1 is no or question 2 is yes then i think a 5-bet has some benefit.
Do you see my point at all?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you think he is going to be super aggro in 4bet pots, then you obviously call and just call him down or something. If he is not going to bluff, or will only bluff once, you want to call still.
<snip>

[/ QUOTE ]

If he's not going to bluff post flop, but you are committed to going broke, then it should be obvious that re-raising is better.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he isn't going to bluff postflop then I'm probably not going broke here.

[HustlerLA]

[ QUOTE ]
This is silly. You have KK against a 25/21 and you have even looser numbers. The game is 5 handed and you only have 300BB, by the time you figure out he likely has AA it's no longer profitable to fold any two cards. I call all in here and am puzzled that I didn't get the money in sooner. Coolers happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay this I agree with, if you are ready to get it in with a the possibility of getting stacked against AA with this villian then dont fold no matter what.
But IF you are trying to avoid getting stacked by AA, then I see the 5bet as the best move.

300BB isn't "only 300BB" its a decent sized stack, but in this spot , I agree just get it in, but then dont be thinking of reevaluating like my naysayers suggest.

[aislephive]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is silly. You have KK against a 25/21 and you have even looser numbers. The game is 5 handed and you only have 300BB, by the time you figure out he likely has AA it's no longer profitable to fold any two cards. I call all in here and am puzzled that I didn't get the money in sooner. Coolers happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay this I agree with, if you are ready to get it in with a the possibility of getting stacked against AA with this villian then dont fold no matter what.
But IF you are trying to avoid getting stacked by AA, then I see the 5bet as the best move.

300BB isn't "only 300BB" its a decent sized stack, but in this spot , I agree just get it in, but then dont be thinking of reevaluating like my naysayers suggest.

[/ QUOTE ]

What if he makes a hero shove with AK or QQ? You can't be absolutely positive that he is only shoving AA here. If you were positive, then you should call and actually get value from worse hands / bluffs. Trying to fold out everything you beat and only get called by the nuts when you have the second nuts is pretty much never a good idea. You realize if you 5bet to 1500 you'll be getting 3-1 on calling a shove? We're only a 4-1 dog to AA, so if he ever decides to shove worse then you have to call.

[HustlerLA]

[ QUOTE ]



What if he makes a hero shove with AK or QQ? You can't be absolutely positive that he is only shoving AA here. If you were positive, then you should call and actually get value from worse hands / bluffs. Trying to fold out everything you beat and only get called by the nuts when you have the second nuts is pretty much never a good idea. You realize if you 5bet to 1500 you'll be getting 3-1 on calling a shove? We're only a 4-1 dog to AA, so if he ever decides to shove worse then you have to call.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes I realize that you will be getting 3to1 as a 4to1 dog, and I agree that you cant be positive but if he is a standard LAG, you could be 90%+ sure that he has AA if he continues on a 5bet. I think the reason we are disagreeing is that it is a marginal spot which by defintiion means there is no great answer just a debate over which is slightly less [censored].
Overall, this is why I stated in my first response, I have never folded KK pre and I have never folded it in a 4bet pot to a board that dry, so I dont fault anyone getting stacked in this spot.

My main point was that if you are playing against a player that is capable of 4betting air, but very likely to shutdown once failed (you called his 4bet), then I think a 5bet is better.

I dont see any sane player hero shoving with AK, or QQ as a 6-bet, just dont see it happening. Plus your premise earlier was that he either has AA or air/drawy hand here. If you think villian has QQ or AK, then def. repop since he has decent equity against KK with AK. So what if we loose a bit of value if he finally gets the idea that QQ is beat we already have half his stack with ZERO variance (no flop).
As an aside this is a flop that I would be hoping for an A on the flop, since we originally agreed it is air or AA, and AA becomes less likely with a Ahigh flop. For one it may be more likely to induce a bluff, and it makes a drawy hand like 78s less likely to flop a str8 draw. I think adding AK in here is pretty irrelevent. Nobody is calling a 5bet or 6betting it.