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#12
09-02-2007, 05:47 PM
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Re: FT200 I miss. Now what?
[ QUOTE ]
obv. flop cbet i wouldn't always 2 barrel the turn, but since you picked up a deceptive draw and the turn is an OC i think it's fine he's not folding the river... yes we know he has 88 or whatever, but he's not folding often enough, so give up also, interesting pfr size [/ QUOTE ] I get confused by this. I agree the flop c-bet is obvious. But what's deceptive with a fd? And if you don't think he'll fold 88-77 even to a 3-barrel, why are you betting the turn? 
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#13
09-02-2007, 05:56 PM
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Re: FT200 I miss. Now what?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] obv. flop cbet i wouldn't always 2 barrel the turn, but since you picked up a deceptive draw and the turn is an OC i think it's fine he's not folding the river... yes we know he has 88 or whatever, but he's not folding often enough, so give up also, interesting pfr size [/ QUOTE ] I get confused by this. I agree the flop c-bet is obvious. But what's deceptive with a fd? And if you don't think he'll fold 88-77 even to a 3-barrel, why are you betting the turn? [/ QUOTE ] what's deceptive is it's a BDFD so when the [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] hits on the river, villain should put you on a busted flopped FD more often than a made BDFD, or a pair or whatever, but why should he put you on the backdoor F?
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#14
09-02-2007, 05:58 PM
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Re: FT200 I miss. Now what?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] obv. flop cbet i wouldn't always 2 barrel the turn, but since you picked up a deceptive draw and the turn is an OC i think it's fine he's not folding the river... yes we know he has 88 or whatever, but he's not folding often enough, so give up also, interesting pfr size [/ QUOTE ] I get confused by this. I agree the flop c-bet is obvious. But what's deceptive with a fd? And if you don't think he'll fold 88-77 even to a 3-barrel, why are you betting the turn? [/ QUOTE ] what's deceptive is it's a BDFD, so if villain thinks you're full of it, when the [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] river comes and you bet, he can put you on a busted flopped FD..... also he discounts the flush since how would you get to the river w/ a BDFD? so he calls w/ less than a flush [/ QUOTE ] We're c-betting this flop like 100%, and most other players does too. We're almost as like to have a heart fd on the turn as a spade.
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#15
09-02-2007, 06:00 PM
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Re: FT200 I miss. Now what?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] obv. flop cbet i wouldn't always 2 barrel the turn, but since you picked up a deceptive draw and the turn is an OC i think it's fine he's not folding the river... yes we know he has 88 or whatever, but he's not folding often enough, so give up also, interesting pfr size [/ QUOTE ] I get confused by this. I agree the flop c-bet is obvious. But what's deceptive with a fd? And if you don't think he'll fold 88-77 even to a 3-barrel, why are you betting the turn? [/ QUOTE ] what's deceptive is it's a BDFD, so if villain thinks you're full of it, when the [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] river comes and you bet, he can put you on a busted flopped FD..... also he discounts the flush since how would you get to the river w/ a BDFD? so he calls w/ less than a flush [/ QUOTE ] We're c-betting this flop like 100%. We're almost as like to have a heart fd on the turn as a spade. [/ QUOTE ] people discount BDFDs that's how they think you don't know whether villain knows you always cbet this flop even if villain knew you always always cbet this flop, you can't expect him to know that you double barrel the turned FD...... but you CAN expect villain to figure out that sometimes you'll double barrel the flopped flush draw anyway, empirically you get paid off more often when you hit a back door flush than a front door flush, hence a back door flush is deceptive
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#16
09-02-2007, 06:06 PM
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Re: FT200 I miss. Now what?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] obv. flop cbet i wouldn't always 2 barrel the turn, but since you picked up a deceptive draw and the turn is an OC i think it's fine he's not folding the river... yes we know he has 88 or whatever, but he's not folding often enough, so give up also, interesting pfr size [/ QUOTE ] I get confused by this. I agree the flop c-bet is obvious. But what's deceptive with a fd? And if you don't think he'll fold 88-77 even to a 3-barrel, why are you betting the turn? [/ QUOTE ] what's deceptive is it's a BDFD, so if villain thinks you're full of it, when the [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] river comes and you bet, he can put you on a busted flopped FD..... also he discounts the flush since how would you get to the river w/ a BDFD? so he calls w/ less than a flush [/ QUOTE ] We're c-betting this flop like 100%. We're almost as like to have a heart fd on the turn as a spade. [/ QUOTE ] people discount BDFDs that's how they think you don't know whether villain knows you always cbet this flop even if villain knew you always always cbet this flop, you can't expect him to know that you double barrel the turned FD...... but you CAN expect villain to figure out that sometimes you'll double barrel the flopped flush draw anyway, empirically you get paid off more often when you hit a back door flush than a front door flush, hence a back door flush is deceptive [/ QUOTE ] No offense, but this sounds really stupid. I almost never get a free card in this situation as SB, I can't imagine a compentent opponent not knowing this. [ QUOTE ] even if villain knew you always always cbet this flop, you can't expect him to know that you double barrel the turned FD...... but you CAN expect villain to figure out that sometimes you'll double barrel the flopped flush draw [/ QUOTE ] Especially this part sounds... wtf [ QUOTE ] anyway, empirically you get paid off more often when you hit a back door flush than a front door flush, hence a back door flush is deceptive [/ QUOTE ] Yeah, it's deceptive when there's actually a reason to belive I won't have a fd. Like when the flop is T53r and I call the flop with JTs and pick up a fd on the turn. In this case it's just too obvious our range is whatever we raise preflop. Especially in the eyes of a competent player. The fact that you on average win more when a bdfd hits doesn't mean much in this situation.
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#18
09-02-2007, 06:16 PM
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Re: FT200 I miss. Now what?
[ QUOTE ]
pf isn't profitable. check this flop. bet turn. [/ QUOTE ] Preflop isn't terrible atall. Folding is fine obviously but raising is definitely fine, especially if we are a good post-flop player with weak players in the blinds. Check flop? Wtf why? We have K-high here and take the pot down loads. Turn bet is pretty meh imo since I don't think this guy folds 77 very often atall, check and try and hit the river.
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#19
09-02-2007, 06:16 PM
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Re: FT200 I miss. Now what?
[ QUOTE ]
ok nick, maybe i explained it bad, but i don't understand how you can't admit that a back door flush draw is a deceptive draw [/ QUOTE ] I feel like this is hi-jacking the thread because it really hasn't much to do with OPs question. 1. Why wouldn't a competent player realise we're c-betting like 100% of our range on the flop? 2. Why would he think we're more likely to check the turn with a bdfd rather than a flopped fd?
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#20
09-02-2007, 06:23 PM
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Re: FT200 I miss. Now what?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] ok nick, maybe i explained it bad, but i don't understand how you can't admit that a back door flush draw is a deceptive draw [/ QUOTE ] I feel like this is hi-jacking the thread because it really hasn't much to do with OPs question. 1. Why wouldn't a competent player realise we're c-betting like 100% of our range on the flop? 2. Why would he think we're more likely to check the turn with a bdfd rather than a flopped fd? [/ QUOTE ] well ok, think about it this way, let's say the turn was a T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and you bet the turn.... he's only got one FD he can put you (ignoring all other hands you can have besides FDs) now the turn puts two FDs on the board, so when you bet the turn you could have one of 2 possible flush draws, making the chance you have any one of those flush draws less likely and now add in all the other stuff you could have bet the flop and turn w/, and he's really not going to be that concerned w/ the BDFD when it hits so this argument would mean that if your front door flush draw hits when the turn brings a second flush draw, you should get paid off more often than if no second flush draw hits on the turn.............. idk, it almost seems reasonable if villain thinks you double barrel a lot
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