Pretending to Believe

[Bez]

Nearly all my friends think that the religious types are mental, especially the American religious right. Then again, I do live in live England where the church is nowhere near as influential. For example, I'm pretty sure that if any Prime Minister claimed God had told him/her to choose a certain policy he/she'd be laughed out of office. (Unfortunately, the likes of Blair just make up crap lies instead)

[Hopey]

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Shouldn't a rationally self-interested atheist pretend to be religious? Church is a great place to socialize and network. It is unquestionably easier to get along in our society and to influence other people if you pretend to agree with their kooky beliefs about what happened 2000 years ago.

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A friend of mine who is a lawyer and has political aspirations goes to church every Sunday for the reasons that you suggested. He doesn't believe in god, but goes to church in order to appear to be religious to the community at large and to network with those who might help his professional and political careers.

As for myself, I don't need church in order to make friends and socialize. I have plenty of other avenues available to me to meet people. I also like to sleep in on Sunday mornings.

[JMAnon]

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is a lawyer and has political aspirations goes to church every Sunday for the reasons that you suggested

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What a coincidence.

[tpir]

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Church is a great place to socialize and network.

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Are you putting this forward as a fact? Maybe part of the atheist's socializing is talking about how stupid they think theism is.


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Since athiests don't believe in god, they shouldn't be bothered by thoughts of sacrilege when lying to priests,

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Maybe they would be bothered because lying is not something they would want people to do to them and it makes them uncomfortable.


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And because there is no god, ultimate objective morality doesn't exist.

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lol.


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So why not fake it and have more friends and an easier life?

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Because they would be friendships that were forged under false pretenses and not satisfying in the way that real friendships are.

[Justin A]

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Church is a great place to socialize and network.

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Church socializing is the most boring and fabricated kind of socializing. Everyone has a completely different personality at church where they act as though stupid jokes are hilarious. Everyone at church is nice and honest and good hearted at church, which is often completely different than how they lead the rest of their lives.

Church socializing makes me want to puke it's so fake.

[hexag1]

i have to disagree here.
1: "Church is a great place to socialize and network" of the devoutly religious folks I've met, a distressing number of them have been either obtuse, unpleasant, uneducated, stupid, or old. serious churchgoers suck, as a rule. they are not fun to hang or converse with, and they are generally prudish and close minded. The church members who do happen to be cool tend not to be very devout, and you can socialize with them in other settings.
2: I think that Americans are way less religious than you are claiming. I have no problem meeting non-religious friends.
3: I dont believe in God, but I'm still bothered when I or anyone lies about serious matters. Frankly, I find the suggestion that I need to believe in God to care about lying to be insulting.
4: there is an objective morality, and that is rooted in human solidarity.

[JMAnon]

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i have to disagree here.
1: "Church is a great place to socialize and network" of the devoutly religious folks I've met, a distressing number of them have been either obtuse, unpleasant, uneducated, stupid, or old. serious churchgoers suck, as a rule. they are not fun to hang or converse with, and they are generally prudish and close minded.


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This is a fair point. I wasn't really thinking of making true friends at church, for the most part. I was mainly thinking about business generation and meeting other influential people. Most leaders (whether political or in corporate america) attend church at least semi-regularly.

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2: I think that Americans are way less religious than you are claiming. I have no problem meeting non-religious friends.


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How many of them are in influential positions in corporations or government? In my experience, there are not many open non-believers in influential positions. But, I live in the South. I also suspect that a great many of the leaders in our country are actually fakers ala my OP.

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3: I dont believe in God, but I'm still bothered when I or anyone lies about serious matters. Frankly, I find the suggestion that I need to believe in God to care about lying to be insulting.


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I didn't mean to insult you. But, if you don't believe in god, why not lie when it serves your purpose? I qualified my post by noting that I was talking to "rationally self-interested atheists." From my perspective, a rational person lies about important things almost never. But the reason is because credibility and reputation are incredibly important for achieving success in most endeavors that require cooperation.

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4: there is an objective morality, and that is rooted in human solidarity.

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Not without god. You can't justify "human solidarity" (or anything else for that matter) as an end worth achieving without god. Sklansky has hammered this point home to death on this board, so I won't fill in all the details.

[JMAnon]

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Are you putting this forward as a fact?


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Yes.

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And because there is no god, ultimate objective morality doesn't exist.

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lol.


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lol, all you want. It doesn't make it less true. It is impossible to construct an objective moral philosophy without at least one foundational moral premise. If you don't have god to supply that premise, anything else is a personal preference. Your personal preferences are probably dictated by a combination of biology and socialization.


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Because they would be friendships that were forged under false pretenses and not satisfying in the way that real friendships are.

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That is a good point. I was thinking more of making connections useful for business and power.

[luckyme]

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lol, all you want. It doesn't make it less true. It is impossible to construct an objective moral philosophy without at least one foundational moral premise. If you don't have god to supply that premise, anything else is a personal preference. Your personal preferences are probably dictated by a combination of biology and socialization.

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As has been gone over several times on this forum, absolute morality is not possible with or without a god.

luckyme

[bluesbassman]

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But, if you don't believe in god, why not lie when it serves your purpose?

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So the only reason you don't lie is because you don't want to displease the invisible magic being that you imagine?

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I qualified my post by noting that I was talking to "rationally self-interested atheists." From my perspective, a rational person lies about important things almost never. But the reason is because credibility and reputation are incredibly important for achieving success in most endeavors that require cooperation.

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There are other reasons not to lie as well, but these are legitimate. Are they not sufficient?


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4: there is an objective morality, and that is rooted in human solidarity.

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Not without god. You can't justify "human solidarity" (or anything else for that matter) as an end worth achieving without god. Sklansky has hammered this point home to death on this board, so I won't fill in all the details.

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Religious ethics ultimately render objective morality impossible, due to an irrational and incoherent metaphysics. It's a similar reason as to why religion tends to contaminate an objective physics and biology.

I'm not sure that you have accurately characterized Mr. Sklanky's position, but if so, he's wrong.