Bush will not retreat from Iraq

[John Kilduff]

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I'm probably not as educated on this topic as most of you, but isn't the main hurdle in Iraq getting the Shiite's, Sunni's, and Kurd's to cooperate?

Is it possible that their differences are so ingrained that it just isn't feasible?

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That is one main hurdle, but to address that realistically would require that Bush and the Neo-Cons be willing to put their multicultural-equality hooey on the shelf for a moment and look at the situation historically, realistically and pragmatically.

Those three groups haven't wanted to get along with each for a long, long, long time. But they're going to do it now, because...???

The Shi'ite-dominated government has been sponsoring death squads against the Sunnis.

The Neo-Cons (and some Liberals) ought to re-examine their presumptions: 1) that all cultures are, at base, equally amenable to modern civil-rights-protective democratic government, and 2) that all ethnic groups, deep down, really just want to get along with each other.

Are the Neo-Cons (and some Liberals) willing to question those assumptions? For the most part, I don't think they are. And so the tilting at mirages and windmills will continue...

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And if that is the main hurdle, why are politicians on TV babbling about "defeating the enemy"?

What enemy?

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The limited presence of al-Qaeda in Iraq can legitimately be considered an enemy. But this is paradoxical as well: if al-Qaeda in Iraq were considered by the Iraqis as truly intolerable, wouldn't they have ruthlessly stamped it out by now? It's not mainly a matter of training, it's a matter more of resolve and participation instead of apathy. The average Iraqi, and the Iraqi government (did they just go on vacation recently?) apparently have other priorities.

[boracay]

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I don't believe you.

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meh, check out world public opinion

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The same polls show that nearly half of Iraqis approve of attacks on US soldiers.
Jan 06 poll

71% wanted the US out within one year and the % who approved of attacks on US soldiers rose to 61%.
Sept 06 poll

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and the same poll says 91% of iraqis wants a withdraw within 2 years, while only 9% want to only reduce US-led forces as the security situation improves.

Another question in the same poll: Do you think the US military in Iraq is currently:
- 21% a stabilizing force
- 78% provoking more conflict than it is preventing

[Tornado69]

anyone got a link to that post with British MI5 agents getting arrested for being dressed up as terrorists shooting at people and found with a trunkload of explosives ? That was an interesting story ... they ultimate goal is to break Iraq up into a few terrorities because they don't want to control the whole country just the small slivers with all the oil.

[Josem]

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So: nobody wants the Americans over there. Not the Iraqees, not the Americans. The only people who want them to be there are the special interests/war profiteers, like Bush himself.

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this is wrong. the coalition troops are there at the invitation of the iraqi government.

incidentally, the popularity of the thing is irrelevant - regardless of how popular it may be to you to unleash the civil war that would follow a coalition withdrawal, it would still be a horrible crime against humanity.


there have been posts on here about a five year old being doused in gasoline and set on fire. do you genuinely believe that the right thing to do is to leave that burning child to die a painful and horrible death?

[Josem]

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only 30% of so of iraqis want us to pull out in the next 6 months.

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since none of those Iraqis voted for Bush, and none of them are paying for the troops to be there its hardly relevant to the criticism of democracy.

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those Iraqis voted for their government which pleads for coalition forces to stay

[Josem]

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I'm probably not as educated on this topic as most of you, but isn't the main hurdle in Iraq getting the Shiite's, Sunni's, and Kurd's to cooperate?

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it is one hurdle

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Is it possible that their differences are so ingrained that it just isn't feasible?

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of course it is possible, but many people are more optimistic than that. of course, if you think that their religion is incompatible with freedom and democracy, than that's up to you to believe.

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And if that is the main hurdle, why are politicians on TV babbling about "defeating the enemy"?

What enemy?

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'cause another enemy is Al Qaeda in Iraq.


As the September 11 attacks (and attacks in Bali, Spain, and elsewhere) demonstrated it is no longer possible to run and hide from these terrorists in another part of the world - they'll come for us.

I'd much rather be fighting on the offensive, fighting them in Baghdad, than fight them on the defensive and fight in Sydney, London, New York and Los Angeles.

[Kaj]

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only 30% of so of iraqis want us to pull out in the next 6 months.

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since none of those Iraqis voted for Bush, and none of them are paying for the troops to be there its hardly relevant to the criticism of democracy.

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those Iraqis voted for their government which pleads for coalition forces to stay

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Is that the same democratically elected government of Maliki that many Congressmen now want replaced at America's whim?

[Josem]

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and the same poll says 91% of iraqis wants a withdraw within 2 years, while only 9% want to only reduce US-led forces as the security situation improves.

Another question in the same poll: Do you think the US military in Iraq is currently:
- 21% a stabilizing force
- 78% provoking more conflict than it is preventing

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claiming that 91% of iraqis want troops out within 2 years, and then arguing that we should remove troops immediately, is silly.

in that poll, respondents could say that they wanted troops out within a variety of different time frames.

a respondent who says that they don't want troops out within 3 months, but wants them out in a year, is obviously not someone who thinks troops should be withdrawn as soon as possible.

don't try to frame it like that.

[Kaj]

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As the September 11 attacks (and attacks in Bali, Spain, and elsewhere) demonstrated it is no longer possible to run and hide from these terrorists in another part of the world - they'll come for us.

I'd much rather be fighting on the offensive, fighting them in Baghdad, than fight them on the defensive and fight in Sydney, London, New York and Los Angeles.

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EXCEPT IRAQ'S ALQAEDA DIDN'T EXIST UNTIL WE INVADED AND CREATED THE CONDITIONS POSSIBLE FOR IT TO EMERGE -- AND NOW IT HAS GONE FROM NONEXISTENT TO KILLING AMERICAN SOLDIERS, CONTRACTORS, AND/OR PRO-WEST IRAQIS DAILY. TRY AGAIN WITH YOUR RATIONALE.

[Josem]

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Is that the same democratically elected government of Maliki that many Congressmen now want replaced at America's whim?

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Yes. But note that Congressmen do not have the power to replace him at whim.