Wanna Get Stronger, But NOT Bigger?

[shemp]

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Few sets (2-5), few reps (1-5), long rest periods (3-5 min), and cycling heavy weights (80% or better of a 1RM I think, maybe 85%) is the way to get stronger without building mass.

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There's an online excerpt from starting strength that indicates that myofibrillar hypertrophy is prompted by working near the 1RM:

http://www.startingstrength.com/files/sample200.pdf

In any case, I doubt OP has much to worry about if he doesn't take roids while on a body building program.

[longbody]

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Few sets (2-5), few reps (1-5), long rest periods (3-5 min), and cycling heavy weights (80% or better of a 1RM I think, maybe 85%) is the way to get stronger without building mass.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's an online excerpt from starting strength that indicates that myofibrillar hypertrophy is prompted by working near the 1RM:

http://www.startingstrength.com/files/sample200.pdf

In any case, I doubt OP has much to worry about if he doesn't take roids while on a body building program.

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Why would he stick to a bodybuilding program? It wouldn't be suited for strength, and he would get bigger if he worked hard at it. Roids aren't a requirement to get bigger.

As for the myofibrillar hypertrophy, it won't happen without a large volume and compressed rest periods. Some people might grow on 5 or 4 sets of 5, but they can always scale back on the volume or maybe increase the rest time if its not long enough. Just whatever can be done to avoid the breakdown of muscle and the reconstruction that follows.

[shemp]

Rather than reconfigure your earlier comments or change the subject, maybe it would be better to simply withdraw them.

You've argued that high intensity won't develop mass-- I posted the Starting Strength link about myofibrillar hypertrophy. And no, it isn't just a question of volume. Conforming to "Prilepin's Table"-- note the volumes, may indeed cause MH:

http://www.angelfire.com/pe/txpls/prilephin.html

And diet isn't irrelevant as it appears you suggest, but is key.

I'm figuring it would save time to put a link or two out there that refutes you in order to make you pause-- rather than simply declaring, "You are wrong." But it appears oddly to be a digression starter and not an ender...

In any case. I agree that a strength training program will get him stronger. Whatever size changes he makes will be either welcomed or easily short circuited by managing his diet. I suspect, just about anything he does will be a step toward his goals-- except a body building program and roids. People don't accidentally explode while trying to get stronger.

[longbody]

Here is a quote from the text Science and Practice of Strength Training by Vladimir Zatsiorsky

"Whatever the mechanism for stimulating muscle hypertrophy, the vital parameters of a training routine that induce such results are exercise intensity (the exerted muscular force) and exercise volume (the total number of repetitions, performed mechanical work). ...."

in other words, if you're missing one of those two parameters, there will be no hypertrophy. And that is how weight class athletes (powerlifters, olympic lifters, boxers, etc.) train for strength without building mass. Ever read a book by Charles Staley, Pavel Tsatsouline, Ross Enamait, Charles Poliquin, Mell Siff or Zatsiorsky? All of them have explained it quite well.


And that is why diet doesn't matter. If the volume isn't sufficient (which can be different from person to person), it cannot matter how much you eat or what you eat. You're not going to gain muscle. Sure, a guy should watch what he eats though, he doesn't want to get fat.

Your first link speaks nothing of volume, your second link speaks nothing of hypertrophy. Good links, but nothing to help your argument. You must believe that strength cannot be gained without some MH, which is false.

Also, I digress nothing.

You can recommend a bodybuilding program, but they sure do suck for someone who wants to get stronger but not bigger. I would tend to recommend a bodybuilding program for someone who wants to get bigger and not care if he gets stronger. Thats just me though.

[shemp]

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Few sets (2-5), few reps (1-5), long rest periods (3-5 min), and cycling heavy weights (80% or better of a 1RM I think, maybe 85%)

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I'm surprised you have a source saying 3 sessions a week, each with 5-25 reps over 80% (or possibly 85%) of 1RM is insufficient for MH-- but then I'm not sure if you are actually claiming that.

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I digress nothing.

You can recommend a bodybuilding program [...]

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I'm not. I haven't.

[longbody]

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I'm surprised you have a source saying 3 sessions a week

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I've written nothing about sessions per week.

Also, you wouldn't do all your work at or above 85% of a 1RM. You would burn your self out. You would be cycling (aka periodization) the weights. You would build up to a personal best in intensity then back off. A two steps forward, one step back kind of a thing. A lot of the training sessions wouldn't include weights that are 85% of a 1RM.

[Thremp]

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I'm surprised you have a source saying 3 sessions a week

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I've written nothing about sessions per week.

Also, you wouldn't do all your work at or above 85% of a 1RM. You would burn your self out. You would be cycling (aka periodization) the weights. You would build up to a personal best in intensity then back off. A two steps forward, one step back kind of a thing. A lot of the training sessions wouldn't include weights that are 85% of a 1RM.

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Have you read anything in the last 25 years about fitness?

[kyleb]

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I'm surprised you have a source saying 3 sessions a week

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I've written nothing about sessions per week.

Also, you wouldn't do all your work at or above 85% of a 1RM. You would burn your self out. You would be cycling (aka periodization) the weights. You would build up to a personal best in intensity then back off. A two steps forward, one step back kind of a thing. A lot of the training sessions wouldn't include weights that are 85% of a 1RM.

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Yeah, this advice is pretty bad.

[guids]

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"Diet shouldn't matter at all. "

orly?

if you eat above maintenance you will grow...dats da law...

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But he won't put on muscle mass if he eats too much, even if though he might be hoisting some serious iron. Thats what I was getting at.
I should have said diet shouldn't matter if you're concerned about putting on muscle mass.

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This is wrong.




there is a lot of half truths in this thread.



If you eat, and lift a lot you will get big, you will also get strong. If you dont eat, you wont get big, but you can get strong. There is optimal ways to train for your goals, I haven read much of the thread other than skimming it, so I dont know if anyone has hit on it.



If you want to get strong, but not big, eat your maintenence cals, probably a little less than maintenence, and tax the [censored] out of your CNS, lift heavy, static contractions, heavy negative reps, etc. do this and dont eat a lot you will get strong, but you wont get big (your CNS is adapting). Do this and eat a lot, you will get strong, and you will grow (yoru CNS and muscles adapt).

[Blarg]

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Few sets (2-5), few reps (1-5), long rest periods (3-5 min), and cycling heavy weights (80% or better of a 1RM I think, maybe 85%) is the way to get stronger without building mass.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's an online excerpt from starting strength that indicates that myofibrillar hypertrophy is prompted by working near the 1RM:

http://www.startingstrength.com/files/sample200.pdf

In any case, I doubt OP has much to worry about if he doesn't take roids while on a body building program.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would he stick to a bodybuilding program? It wouldn't be suited for strength, and he would get bigger if he worked hard at it. Roids aren't a requirement to get bigger.

As for the myofibrillar hypertrophy, it won't happen without a large volume and compressed rest periods. Some people might grow on 5 or 4 sets of 5, but they can always scale back on the volume or maybe increase the rest time if its not long enough. Just whatever can be done to avoid the breakdown of muscle and the reconstruction that follows.

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It's sarcoplasmic, not myofibrillar, hypertrophy that won't occur readily without a large volume of work and a large volume of food. But even that can be helped along a bit by doing full-body exercises rather than isolation exercises.