Top 2, I need a line. 400 NL

[FooSH]

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why not check to induce bluff? if we call anyway, we lose value from hands that won't call our river bet, because their scared of J, and every J is calling our bet

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Villian won't have many bluffing hands. If he hasn't got a J then he at least has a pair and will be grateful for a cheap showdown. Besides, he knows we'll be getting pretty good odds to call with only a 1/2 pot bet

[halperin]

dont see how betting 3/4 on flop and turn is a leak... do u pot it when u cbet with nothing?

[Go_Blue88]

not sure how others will feel about this reasoning, but if you plan to c/c in this spot then you may as well just shove.

he turns his hand into a bluff a small % of the time.

[Nielsio]

Standard shove

[coolmoedee]

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always shove if u are gonna call anyway. nh

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I seem to think if your going to call, then why not let him bet at it? If you lead out all in then you usually only get called by a better hand, especially on this board. If your not planning on folding to any bet then just C/C. This way you may induce him into bluffing and you get that extra cash. I dont see any reason to play this river any other way.

[pepper123]

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always shove if u are gonna call anyway. nh

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I seem to think if your going to call, then why not let him bet at it? If you lead out all in then you usually only get called by a better hand, especially on this board. If your not planning on folding to any bet then just C/C. This way you may induce him into bluffing and you get that extra cash. I dont see any reason to play this river any other way.

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because he doesn't ever turn made hands that we beat into a bluff (AT/QT type hands) and it's really hard for him to have air to bluff with here. therefore his handrange is medium strength non-straight hands that we beat and hands with a Jack in them. he's betting all jacks and almost no worse hands. soooo if you check/call you're basically just giving money away whereas if you shove at least you can get some calls from QT type hands.

[coolmoedee]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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always shove if u are gonna call anyway. nh

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I seem to think if your going to call, then why not let him bet at it? If you lead out all in then you usually only get called by a better hand, especially on this board. If your not planning on folding to any bet then just C/C. This way you may induce him into bluffing and you get that extra cash. I dont see any reason to play this river any other way.

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because he doesn't ever turn made hands that we beat into a bluff (AT/QT type hands) and it's really hard for him to have air to bluff with here. therefore his handrange is medium strength non-straight hands that we beat and hands with a Jack in them. he's betting all jacks and almost no worse hands. soooo if you check/call you're basically just giving money away whereas if you shove at least you can get some calls from QT type hands.

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I really think your wrong on this one. If we make any type of decent sized bet, he's not calling with a weaker ace. I agree that he will call us off if he has a good 2 pair, but he will also most like bet at it with those hands if we check. I think if you push, you lose more money with a slim chance at winning more. If you check call you can save a lot of money and get more profit from bluffs. To me, the river is a C/C all the time.

[pepper123]

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I really think your wrong on this one. If we make any type of decent sized bet, he's not calling with a weaker ace. I agree that he will call us off if he has a good 2 pair, but he will also most like bet at it with those hands if we check. I think if you push, you lose more money with a slim chance at winning more. If you check call you can save a lot of money and get more profit from bluffs. To me, the river is a C/C all the time.

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it's great that you think he can have all these bluffs that he shvoes the river with but look at the board and the action. what hand does he have that he now decides to turn into a bluff?

what weak ace does he ever have? i mean i guess he could float the flop with A6o or something but that's a pretty small part of his range.

if you actually start naming some hands that are in his range you will see why a shove is better than a check/call. if i check this river it's because i'm folding, not because i'm inducing bluffs.

[cityburke]

This is a river c/f imo. If the villain is anything close to standard then it seems unlikely he could have anything worse that he would bet when checked to on the river and anything worse he is willing to call a shove with. He would raise 2 pairs on the flop or turn most of the time on this drawy board and the only draw got there.

[blankoblanco]

yeah, why is this such a standard shove? i can really see this being a c/f as well. he didn't raise flop or turn when board is drawy as hell.. wth do the shovers think he has?