200: 99 Flops a Set on Crappy Board

[bottomset]

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There are also a decent number of draws possible that we are about 40% against as well.

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um

sets are NEVER an underdog to a draw in holdem, in omaha sure all the time

QJ
J7
76
TT

only hands you are behind, the offsuit straight hands aren't that likely either

its 15combos if you are only talkind suited+TT, probably more fair to put it around 25combos, you could discount them more if you didnt raise so weak preflop

[QTip]

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There are also a decent number of draws possible that we are about 40% against as well.

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um

sets are NEVER an underdog to a draw in holdem, in omaha sure all the time

QJ
J7
76
TT

only hands you are behind, the offsuit straight hands aren't that likely either

its 15combos if you are only talkind suited+TT, probably more fair to put it around 25combos, you could discount them more if you didnt raise so weak preflop

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Wow...you're right about the sets never behind to a draw. Man...I messed something up in some notes I took a couple weeks ago, and that screwed me up.

Anyway, both sb and UTG were over 50 vpips, but were polar opposites in terms of aggression PF and postflop. I doubt I could discount further if the raise were $2 or $4 more as far as those two go.

As far as the hands you listed that beat me: My thoughts were that UTG could have any of the hands listed. SB could have any but TT, and the button could have TT MAYBE QJs.

So, what would you do here bottomset?

[QTip]

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You really need to raise. I think there is an argument for just moving in. A pot sized raise is going to be around $60. Moving in is around 2x the pot or so. That's not a ridiculous overbet. There's no raise that doesn't marry you to this pot and shove in some ways represents a draw. I think we get a number of draws, pair + draw and 2 pair hands to call us. More than likely we have UTG + 1 beat. If you want to stick in a pot sized raise, that's fine too. In any case, if we smooth call the button has a great opportunity to bluff us off what is a pretty good hand with only 75BB to work with. Maybe SB flopped gin, but from your read, mostly not. We have outs if that is the case.

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The button would have a serious brain lapse to bluff raise here.

[QTip]

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I think our chances all-in vs. UTG+1 aren't too bad if he is calling, if he is the one pushing, then they probably aren't as good, but he could have an underset for instance.

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Good point there too. However, notice that he waited until the turn to raise with his monster hand before.

[bottomset]

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So, what would you do here bottomset?

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I would have raised to 9/10preflop

and raised the flop to 40-45, snap call a shove

[QTip]

Let me ask this question:

Let's say we made a $55 raise here. How would you feel about one of these scenarios:

1. Button pushes all in?
2. EP pushes all in?

Are you going to fold?

How about if we raised and only sb called and some scared card landed, maybe a diamond or a straight card and the sb pushed? How would we feel? Reluctantly committed?

My thinking in this hand is I didn't want to be reluctantly committed. A call on the flop allowed me to reach the commitment threshold on the turn with more information. I could easily be misapplying the concepts in the book here (I'm a pro at doing so), so I want to get this ironed out in my mind. I didn't want to be building a big pot and have two players who could push over my raise and make me want to fold. Granted I could also have one push and another call, at which I point I have to call even if someone shows me the straight.

At any rate, the way I played the hand did save me money...which is just another luck factor in the game we often don't think about...this is assuming that raising is the right play to make (and I'm still not convinced but am severely outnumbered [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img])

I called here, and so did the button. The turn came a Q not completing the flush. The pot was at about $58. The sb checked, EP checked, I checked, the button bet $26, the sb raised to $56, EP folded, so did I, the button pushed and sb called. They both had KJs. The river did not pair. I say this hand saved me money, cuz the sb never folds the flop....which again is a reason to raise.

What do others think of the pushing the flop idea one poster had?

[QTip]

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So, what would you do here bottomset?

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I would have raised to 9/10preflop

and raised the flop to 40-45, snap call a shove

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Can I get your thoughts on why that size a raise pf. I'm asking in light of what we've been discussing here in terms of SPR.

[QTip]

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So, what would you do here bottomset?

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I would have raised to 9/10preflop

and raised the flop to 40-45, snap call a shove

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Can I get your thoughts on why that size a raise pf. I'm asking in light of what we've been discussing here in terms of SPR.

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I should probably be more specific here as well. I have very little FE against UTG if he catches a pair. SB is the same. I just wanted to try to get the pot short here, and get the pot brewing so I could stack someone easily when hitting a set.

[Matt Flynn]

QTip you've got to raise that flop big. too many cards can hurt you, you have good equity now but may be sussed if a diamond or straight card hits, and there's a lot of money already in the pot relative to the remaining money.

[Warren Harding]

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Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $1/$2 Blinds - 9 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $437.60
BB: $186.80
UTG: $181.30
UTG+1: $222.55
MP1: $144.05
MP2: $223.15
MP3: $118.00
Hero (CO): $144.00 (Stack is such because lost previous hand and FT sucks for reloading)
BTN: $195.25

Reads: <font color="blue">EP limper is a loose passive player. He'd open limped KK and so forth and plays everything very passively. I had seen him raise the turn after flopping a set of Queens, but that's all the raising he has done.

The button was tight and semi-aggressive

The sb was a lagtard. Here are the notes I have on him: raised 3 players from the BB with AQo and led
1/2 into them with 2 pair on monotone board
cc with A9o
fired 3 barrels with FF into 3 opp.- overbet the flop
open limp 88 from EP</font>

Preflop: Hero is dealt 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (9 Players)
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls $2.00, 3 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $6.00</font>, BTN calls $6.00, SB calls $5.00, BB folds, UTG+1 calls $4.00

Flop: ($26) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $8.00</font>, UTG+1 calls $8.00, Hero ?

What and Why? If betting, how much and why?

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I fire on this flop. The small bet from an aggro player and the weak call from a passive player represent wide ranges. Passive players call with crap hands too. Thus, we can raise here for value.

The amount? If we raise it to $34, and we get one caller, the flop will have 102, while our stack will be 104. That way, we have flexibility: we can PSB AI on the turn, or, we can break it into chunks, such as 1/2PSB turn then 1/4pot suck bet. OTOH, we aren't pot committed should circumstances dictate we are beat.

We could bet more, but that looks insecure: I think them calling $34 is a mistake; against a bigger bet, they usually fold (or raise) correctly. I generally do not like overbetting the pot.