|
|
#11
08-11-2007, 07:22 PM
|
|||
|
|||
Re: mid boat, faced with reraise river
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Someone explain why JJJ wouldn't repop the flop here? [/ QUOTE ] If he expects to be agaisnt a straight draw/flush draw combo, then he wants the turn to blank as the guy will almost certainly bet again, this time as a 75/25 dog rather than a 55/45 dog. Most players dont fold a draw on the turn so it saves money the times it hits the turn and doesn't save the opponent money the time it misses on the turn. [/ QUOTE ] Rib, I'm not sure I agree with this. Say we have JJJ on this flop and we're in position. When we get CHECK/RAISED I think it means one of two things most of the time. Either we're up against smaller set 888/555 or a combo draw. Now, I understand the point of seeing safe turn cards. I take that line a lot actually, but not here and I really don't see why a villian would either. c/r a multiway pot = strength, and we would be happy to get it in on the flop with JJJ, right? Calling and seeing a safe turn with top set after our opponent c/r a multi way pot just doesn't make sense. Calling and seeing the turn: 1) We still stack a flopped set almost always when its safe 2) When its a scare card, it KILLS our action from sets. 3) BUT, when we're up against combo draws we can save money 4) When its a safe card, a combo draw might slowdown. 5) If the combo draw still leads out, then we get it all in. And have to dodge some cards anyway. Pushing the flop: 1) We stack lower sets ALWAYS. 2) We get it in vs a combo draw almost always. 3) The times the draw hits on the turn, we still have 10 outs on the river. 4) If turn is a blank, and combo draw hits on river then thats the same thing as #5 above. Its no different if we just called and saw the blank then shoved. Same thing gonna happen. I'd much rather get it in on the flop vs the {555/888/ComboDraw} range then to see a turn card. The turn scare card slows down smaller sets and allows combodraws to fire out OR we get it all in anyway when its safe. Why risk seeing a turn card at all? Get the stack in, EVEN if we're up against a combo draw AND it hits on the turn, we STILL have 10 outs on the river. EDIT: Agree with Full-Metall, def bet larger on river. 
|
|
#12
08-11-2007, 07:27 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: mid boat, faced with reraise river
Check raising also means you can be up against a total bluff. No matter, which ever one of these hands your opponent has, you want him to continue betting without realising the strength of your hand.
A bet from him on the turn and a raise will put him in. Just calling a flop raise allows hands like 2 pair to fire again on the turn thinking you have the straight/flush draw combo. It also allows the nut flush draw to bet again thinking that you are weak and that he can push you off the hand. A good example of this would be one where you are raising preflop and making a significant number of c-bets. People love to try and move you off hands post flop. http://www.pokerhand.org/?1355356 http://www.pokerhand.org/?1351401
|
|
#13
08-11-2007, 07:41 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: mid boat, faced with reraise river
I'd rather be SURE that I stack either set here all the time and stack the combo draw here most of the time, then to risk a turn card bringing action we now don't want and killing action we wanted but now can't get.
I see what you're saying, and trust me, I love taking that line when I feel the situation warrents it. But I just don't think this is one of those situations. I'm headin out for the night, be back tomarrow and check back up on this. What do other people think? JJJ in position facing c/r here. Push the flop hard or see a turn card?
|
|
#14
08-11-2007, 07:46 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: mid boat, faced with reraise river
[ QUOTE ]
I'd rather be SURE that I stack either set here all the time and stack the combo draw here most of the time, then to risk a turn card bringing action we now don't want and killing action we wanted but now can't get. I see what you're saying, and trust me, I love taking that line when I feel the situation warrents it. But I just don't think this is one of those situations. I'm headin out for the night, be back tomarrow and check back up on this. What do other people think? JJJ in position facing c/r here. Push the flop hard or see a turn card? [/ QUOTE ] If you're always playing your made hands the same way like that, there is a big leak in your game. Plus I don't think you understand the nature of 5 handed games if you think a board pairing will kill the action. I could have sworn I just posted a hand that happened 2 days ago where an opponent felted the turn with a flush against my full house.
|
|
#15
08-11-2007, 08:18 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: mid boat, faced with reraise river
This deep, and with position, I think playing JJJ like this is better than playing it fast.
|
|
#16
08-11-2007, 08:38 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: mid boat, faced with reraise river
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I'd rather be SURE that I stack either set here all the time and stack the combo draw here most of the time, then to risk a turn card bringing action we now don't want and killing action we wanted but now can't get. I see what you're saying, and trust me, I love taking that line when I feel the situation warrents it. But I just don't think this is one of those situations. I'm headin out for the night, be back tomarrow and check back up on this. What do other people think? JJJ in position facing c/r here. Push the flop hard or see a turn card? [/ QUOTE ] If you're always playing your made hands the same way like that, there is a big leak in your game. Plus I don't think you understand the nature of 5 handed games if you think a board pairing will kill the action. I could have sworn I just posted a hand that happened 2 days ago where an opponent felted the turn with a flush against my full house. [/ QUOTE ] A couple more points: Even if he has the combo draw, he will almost certainly bet the turn if the board pairs. Also, a small set or two pair may fold to your raise on the flop, but both will almost certainly bet a blank on the turn. And if the board comes scary and your opponent keeps firing, you can probably fold the river having saved substantial money. I like to mix it up, so I don't do this every time, but I think it can even be a good play multi-way if the check-raiser is aggressive enough.
|
|
#20
08-12-2007, 07:13 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: mid boat, faced with reraise river
[ QUOTE ]
i called just because of he didnt raise the flop and i had a jack [/ QUOTE ] Just to be clear, I don't think anyone in this thread ever suggested you should fold -- this was a very obvious call. The discussion about whether it would be ok to play JJ the way your opponent played his hand was purely tangential.
|
 |
|
|
Linear Mode
