QQ vs TAG in reraised pot - intersting turn card

[pdoran10]

shove turn, ur going to get protection from 6 outs and sometimes get him to fold the best hand, because this board will scare the crap out of him with AA,KK. also, ur getting value from jj occationally so just shove.

[cs3]

[ QUOTE ]
shove turn, ur going to get protection from 6 outs and sometimes get him to fold the best hand, because this board will scare the crap out of him with AA,KK. also, ur getting value from jj occationally so just shove.

[/ QUOTE ]

these were pretty much my exact thoughts during the hand and i did in fact shove.

what do you think about my flop line/turn plan?

[Mat Cauthon]

If you think he would bet almost every turn with AK etc. then your flop play is fine. But I don't think he would.

[cs3]

villain timed down to the last second and folded by the way.


so the question is,
is there any hand in my range that i shouldn't be shoving on this turn?

[Nielsio]

3-bet% statistics can be helpful here.

Also, just because you're raising a lot of hands on the co/btn doesn't mean you're a maniac who gets out line.

Raising the flop therefore seems like a really bad idea. Sometimes tags raise me on the flop with QQ in a situation like this and they're getting action from KK+, sets, and AhQh/AhKh.

[cs3]

[ QUOTE ]
3-bet% statistics can be helpful here.


[/ QUOTE ]
is there a stat in PT for this? i've tried to find one before and could never figure it out.




[ QUOTE ]

Raising the flop therefore seems like a really bad idea. Sometimes tags raise me on the flop with QQ in a situation like this and they're getting action from KK+, sets, and AhQh/AhKh.

[/ QUOTE ]
agreed, we're only getting action from hands were behind if we shove flop, and this type of player likely to fire again on turn with air.
only argument i can see for raising flop is to protect against a 6 outer (which is a valid argument)




ao how what this question?
[ QUOTE ]
so the question is,
is there any hand in my range that i shouldn't be shoving on this turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

[Nielsio]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3-bet% statistics can be helpful here.


[/ QUOTE ]
is there a stat in PT for this? i've tried to find one before and could never figure it out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Look for 'realtime' in the software forum. It's a new HUD.




[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Raising the flop therefore seems like a really bad idea. Sometimes tags raise me on the flop with QQ in a situation like this and they're getting action from KK+, sets, and AhQh/AhKh.

[/ QUOTE ]
agreed, we're only getting action from hands were behind if we shove flop, and this type of player likely to fire again on turn with air.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought he was a tight guy. Why do you think he's ever betting the turn with air? That makes no sense to me. Esp given stack/potsizes etc.


[ QUOTE ]

ao how what this question?
[ QUOTE ]
so the question is,
is there any hand in my range that i shouldn't be shoving on this turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]


If I were villain, and you hadn't raised the flop, then I think I'm calling you often with KK+ on this turn if you shove. If I would check the turn is another question, but I might.

[cs3]

villain was very tight preflop, but also very aggro postflop so i assumed he would double barrel pretty often if a i just called the flop.



for villain, i dont think open shoving the turn would be good at all with KK. he would have to put me on EXACTLY QQ/JJ and my range is obv way wider than that. what could he expect to beat there?

same goes for villainch/calling turn? he has to put me on complete air there to call right? becasue thats all he beats. but what kind of air hand can i possibly have to call that flop? i think most TAG regulars never expect someone to shove QQ or JJ on that board and think they can safely check/fold KK and maybe AA on the turn.

[Nielsio]

[ QUOTE ]
villain was very tight preflop, but also very aggro postflop so i assumed he would double barrel pretty often if a i just called the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Reraised pots play much different and it's very rare for any kind of villain, esp a 16/14, to start double barreling here.



[ QUOTE ]
for villain, i dont think open shoving the turn would be good at all with KK. he would have to put me on EXACTLY QQ/JJ and my range is obv way wider than that. what could he expect to beat there?

[/ QUOTE ]

Who said anything about openshoving the turn?


[ QUOTE ]
same goes for villainch/calling turn? he has to put me on complete air there to call right? becasue thats all he beats. but what kind of air hand can i possibly have to call that flop? i think most TAG regulars never expect someone to shove QQ or JJ on that board and think they can safely check/fold KK and maybe AA on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, he doesn't have to put you on complete air. JJ through KK or hearts with or without a pair is totally likely for you.

If you have a set/two pair you're raising the flop almost always. So he should be basically affraid of a turned two pair or a turned straight.

Once you overshove the turn, you are either trying to push him off his hand or expect villain to have air anyway, or you're trying to rep what I just mentioned but instead with the goods.

Your question 'what hand SHOULDNT I push the turn here with' portrays perfectly the mindset of most people, which is why a turn check and call a push isn't bad at all.

[cs3]

look at stack sizes - any bet villain makes on the turn is effectively a shove



[ QUOTE ]
I think I'm calling you often with KK+ on this turn if you shove. If I would check the turn is another question,

[/ QUOTE ]